When would slavery in the Southern States have ended...

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Given the source of that statement, it's the best compliment I've ever heard for the Southern Baptist church.......

Given the source of that statement, it's the best compliment I've ever heard for the Southern Baptist church.......

Nothing in anything you've mentioned calls out the UMC. There is no condemnation of Methodists whatsoever in anything you've copy/pasted here.

Sure, we regard homosexuality as unrighteous. But nowhere in there does it say that "homosexuals are consigned to hell." In fact, the resolution you cited that affirms the Baptist belief in hell as a real place is merely a reaction to an author (Rob Bell) who appears to promote universal reconciliation. It has nothing to do with homosexuals going to hell nor does it have anything to do with the UMC going to hell.

Baptists don't believe that any one sin or wrong idea consigns someone to hell. ALL sin condemns us to hell, and God's forgiveness is available to ALL sinners who want it.

@Kraichgauer: Sorry you feel that way, but fundamentally the only thing Baptists are concerned with as far as the destiny of the human soul is whether one has accepted the free gift of God's grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Your complaint is one of nitpicky Biblical interpretation that we have differences on, and some of those that you mentioned might be seen by some as potentially misleading believers. Your position on irresistible grace, for instance, could cause a lot of confusion for someone questioning whether his experience of salvation is genuine or not. If one can, say, fall from grace, was he really saved to begin with? It can also call into question God's ability to protect His own. Your position on human choice can also be confusing. I mean, we can go round after round on free will and whether it actually exists or not, but saying we have no choice in the matter doesn't offer much hope for those experiencing doubt.

I don't take any direct issue with infant baptism, but I do think baptism should be up to the person who is old enough to decide for himself or herself whether they accept Jesus and become a Christian. Baptism has no saving power. What some Baptist churches do is have something that functions similarly to infant baptism, and it is not Biblically unknown to present infants before the church and dedicate them to the service of God. I just disagree that baptism is the appropriate symbolism for such a thing.

We don't have a problem with liturgical worship, either. Some of the most conservative Baptist churches borrow heavily from liturgical worship. I've found some things in normal Baptist worship to be lacking, however. The problem with liturgical worship is that a highly ritualized worship element runs the risk of existing for its own sake rather than as a vehicle for genuine worship. It lulls the congregant into simply going through the motions without complete participation from the inside out. The extreme opposite is just as wrong--turning the worship service into a rock concert that glorifies the talent rather than Jesus.

One of the biggest problems I have with our (SBC) churches is that we for the most part choose not to have a strictly liturgical service and call it good, yet many of us have slipped right back into a tendency towards what WE call traditional worship when what we're REALLY saying is we just want a Bill and Gloria Gaither concert every Sunday--and that's just as bad as the heavy metal concert churches. It's not about the music or format. It's about the heart of the worshipper. I'm also sickened by the total lack of concern for the needs of the whole congregation and apparent blindness to the needs of the community we purport to serve. Convince a Baptist church to do what they're supposed to do (what any church is supposed to do) and you'll have a bunch of people that are so excited about showing up every Sunday it won't matter what choice of worship style they offer.

As for myself--I actually work in a Baptist church as a musician. I was brought up in a smaller, "country" church that tended to emphasize Southern Gospel music. I had my fill of it by my teenage years, and lately I've developed a taste for contemporary praise and worship music. I consider myself an eclectic when it comes to music--I have an extensive classical background, but I can also be seen in bars and clubs playing rock and pop covers (and people in my church do know that I play in bars, shower and change clothes, and show up for soundcheck within 3 or 4 hours after getting home from a late-night gig). So I can hang with a old-time pentecostal worship style just as well as I can read music accompanying a more concert-style choir. And I can do anything in between. We probably have some old-timers who think we're going to hell for using music that doesn't come from the Baptist Hymnal (they obviously haven't seen the newest one). But I've never heard any complaints after I slip back into my country southern gospel roots. It's relevant to them and I've caught a few teenagers actually enjoying it, too. In order to reach the worshippers, some versatility is necessary.

I say that to say this: I've often been dissatisfied with how things are done where I work. I feel like many of the people there are just waiting to die and they are out of touch or just flat don't care about what they leave behind. I don't feel I'm in the best place to grow as a Christian at the moment, and I've taken time to look at opportunities elsewhere. What I'm finding, interestingly enough, is that there are numerous calls open for praise band musicians and worship leaders at UMC, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches. So it's not just Baptists. Check this out:

CCM worship leader wanted, Lutheran Church

So, apparently, Lutherans don't exclusively do liturgical worship, either.

I don't care what denomination you belong to. We all have problems. We're all still sinners. We all still need to repent. So before you try to remove the speck from your Baptist neighbor's eye, please be sure to remove the beam from your own. I promise to do the same.

I am not mocking--merely asking.

You state that it is not your job to apologize for the Bible, nor to "sugarcoat" it. You didn't write the Bible, so for what would there be for you to apologize?

You state that your job is "To worship God and submit to His will."

Why should you care if I care or don't care? What's it to you? You're getting extremely defensive here.

My reason for caring: I regard the Southern Baptist Church as a dangerous force for evil.

I should concede that not all Southern Baptists are ready to consign my family and me to hell, but there are a percentage.
As for your point about denial of free will leaving no hope for those in doubt - our salvation, we believe, is entirely in Gods hands, not in ours. Even if our faith falters, God still holds us in grace. Same with baptism. We do believe that it's a means of grace, and that it's dependent on God and his free gift, not on us.
And yes, I do concede, there are Lutherans who practice non-liturgical worship, but they are a minority. We have no problem with this. We do have a problem with those who hold traditional worship against us.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Oh, so you're a self-appointed pharasee. Ah, the truth comes out - and it explains a lot. And no, I'm not being the slightest bit defensive. I just get the impression that when I ask a question and you don't answer it that you are purposefully avoiding it. And, being law school trained, yes, I will hold you to an answer until I get it - because for all I know you may be hiding something - or changing the subject. Old habits die hard. There is nothing defensive about it. It's simply good debatesmanship - which secular liberals seem to have a hard time dealing with. Yeah, I do recall a Bible passage - let me see - somewhere in Matthew - ah yes, Matthew 12:22 - 27, when Jesus cast the demons out of the blind possessed man and then the pharasees accused Jesus of being of the devil. That passage comes to mind when you accuse the Souther Baptist Church of being a great source evil. I see a great parallel here. You do have the mindset of a pharasee, I will give you credit for that. So, you think my church is evil and thus you must think that I'm evil because I'm a member. Fascinating. Let's look this over.

According to Webster's, the definition of evil is basically what is morally wrong, what hinders the realization of good; what is materially and especially socially very harmful.

We worship and glorify God, and give praise and thanks to His Son, Jesus Christ, for dying for us that we may enjoy a relationship with God and not be condemned to a Christless eternity. And many of our churches have food pantries that serve a lot of people. I can't for the life of me imagine how that would be evil. There is nothing about it that hinders society or is harmful or is wrong about it. Thus, your statement is unsupported. On your reply to this post perhaps you can defend that statement - or were you merely being inflamitory?

Why should I care that you care? Because, like any other person on this site I don't like to waste my time with people who don't care. As I'm sure you feel the same way. I have better things to use my life energy with. In other words, I have a life.

Now - a disclaimer before I continue. After all, I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people - and I don't want to leave that impression - but, Arrant Pariah did ask a question and a question does beget an answer. So If you don't like the answer, don't blame me. Blame Arrant Pariah for asking the question in the first place.

What is God's will? That is simple. It's in the Bible - at least in my and my fellow congregants belief - That we trust Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior and that we have a close relationship with God and obey his will for our lives. Now, that means that we submit to His lordship, His authority over us. His will for us is covered - in my Christian belief, in the Bible. You may choose to follow Him or not. I've made my choice. No one is sticking an AK-47 to your head. There are a number of countries that do just that to force people to follow their state sponsored religion (Iran for example).

What does it mean to worship God and submit to His will? Simply that. I wouldn't think I'd need a Webster's Dictionary for that. I would think that you are a smart enough guy to figure out that one on your own.

I believe that Christ offers all of us a choice, thus, in reality, we choose whether we go to heaven or hell.

Christianity offers me a solace that I never experienced as a secular athiest. I am not condemning you for your choices. I don't get paid enough to do that. But, likewise, don't condemn me for mine. You don't get paid enough to do it either. And just because we acknowledge the existence of hell, it does not mean that there is any point of condemnation for us. We just acknowledge scripture. Period. If you wish to deny it, by all means do so. Don't let us stop you. There are sins I despise, sure. But there is nothing wrong with condemning the sin - not the sinner. And ALL of us, including you, Saint Arrant Pariah, sin daily. The biggest difference between me and an athiest or an agnostic is that I know, beyond any doubt, that God loved me so much, that he not only gave me a drop-dead, gorgeous, knock-out wife, a couple of great daughters, grandkids, a fulfilling military career, a roof over my head, food on my table, and a hedge of protection in battle, but also gave me His only begotten Son that I may spend my eternity Him either after death or after rapture. I'm saved and my place is sealed. I serve my country - yes. But I serve Christ first. And I've been in some pretty hair-raising situations. Was I scared? Try down-right terrified! But while I'm scared of HOW I may die, I don't fear death itself. And that, is part of the peace that passes all understanding.

You know, your slur reminds me of an event that occurred on the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg. General Robert E. Lee had just given the order for his army to begin the retreat South. As he rode down Cemetary Hill, a Union Army private who was seriously wounded (the wound would ultimately cost him a leg) raised his arms and shouted "Hurrah for the Union". Lee immediately dismounted his horse and walked toward the private. The private thought that Lee was going to kill him. Instead, Lee knelt down and took the private's hand and said, "My son, I will pray for you, and hope that one day you will soon be well."

I'm not a general. Just a lowly major. But I'll close this post in the same way. "My dear Sir, I will pray for you, and hope that one day, you'll soon find peace."

Longshanks

Funny you should mention that. I've had more Missouri and Wisconsin Synod Pastors tell me that I'm going to hell because I'm not a Lutheran. Oh, the irony.

Longshanks

Oh, so you're a self-appointed pharasee. Ah, the truth comes out - and it explains a lot.

The most important of the three were the Pharisees because they are the spiritual fathers of modern Judaism. Their main distinguishing characteristic was a belief in an Oral Law that God gave to Moses at Sinai along with the Torah. The Torah or Written Law was akin to the U.S. Constitution in the sense that it set down a series of laws that were open to interpretation. The Pharisees believed that God also gave Moses the knowledge of what these laws meant and how they should be applied. This oral tradition was codified and written down roughly three centuries later in what is known as the Talmud. The Pharisees also maintained that an afterlife existed and that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous in the world to come. They also believed in a messiah who would herald an era of world peace.

And no, I'm not being the slightest bit defensive.

I just get the impression that when I ask a question and you don't answer it that you are purposefully avoiding it. And, being law school trained, yes, I will hold you to an answer until I get it - because for all I know you may be hiding something - or changing the subject. Old habits die hard. There is nothing defensive about it. It's simply good debatesmanship - which secular liberals seem to have a hard time dealing with.

Yeah, I do recall a Bible passage - let me see - somewhere in Matthew - ah yes, Matthew 12:22 - 27, when Jesus cast the demons out of the blind possessed man and then the pharasees accused Jesus of being of the devil. That passage comes to mind when you accuse the Souther Baptist Church of being a great source evil. I see a great parallel here. You do have the mindset of a pharasee, I will give you credit for that.

So, you think my church is evil and thus you must think that I'm evil because I'm a member. Fascinating. Let's look this over.

According to Webster's, the definition of evil is basically what is morally wrong, what hinders the realization of good; what is materially and especially socially very harmful.

We worship and glorify God, and give praise and thanks to His Son, Jesus Christ, for dying for us that we may enjoy a relationship with God and not be condemned to a Christless eternity.

And many of our churches have food pantries that serve a lot of people. I can't for the life of me imagine how that would be evil. There is nothing about it that hinders society or is harmful or is wrong about it. Thus, your statement is unsupported. On your reply to this post perhaps you can defend that statement - or were you merely being inflamitory?

Why should I care that you care? Because, like any other person on this site I don't like to waste my time with people who don't care. As I'm sure you feel the same way. I have better things to use my life energy with. In other words, I have a life.

Now - a disclaimer before I continue. After all, I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people - and I don't want to leave that impression - but, Arrant Pariah did ask a question and a question does beget an answer. So If you don't like the answer, don't blame me. Blame Arrant Pariah for asking the question in the first place.

What is God's will? That is simple. It's in the Bible - at least in my and my fellow congregants belief - That we trust Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior and that we have a close relationship with God and obey his will for our lives.

Now, that means that we submit to His lordship, His authority over us. His will for us is covered - in my Christian belief, in the Bible. You may choose to follow Him or not. I've made my choice. No one is sticking an AK-47 to your head. There are a number of countries that do just that to force people to follow their state sponsored religion (Iran for example).

What does it mean to worship God and submit to His will? Simply that. I wouldn't think I'd need a Webster's Dictionary for that. I would think that you are a smart enough guy to figure out that one on your own.

I believe that Christ offers all of us a choice, thus, in reality, we choose whether we go to heaven or hell.

Christianity offers me a solace that I never experienced as a secular athiest.

I am not condemning you for your choices.

I don't get paid enough to do that.

But, likewise, don't condemn me for mine. You don't get paid enough to do it either.

And just because we acknowledge the existence of hell, it does not mean that there is any point of condemnation for us.

We just acknowledge scripture. Period.

If you wish to deny it, by all means do so. Don't let us stop you.

There are sins I despise, sure.

But there is nothing wrong with condemning the sin - not the sinner.

And ALL of us, including you, Saint Arrant Pariah, sin daily.

The biggest difference between me and an athiest or an agnostic is that I know, beyond any doubt, that God loved me so much, that he not only gave me a drop-dead, gorgeous, knock-out wife, a couple of great daughters, grandkids, a fulfilling military career, a roof over my head, food on my table, and a hedge of protection in battle, but also gave me His only begotten Son that I may spend my eternity Him either after death or after rapture. I'm saved and my place is sealed.

I serve my country - yes. But I serve Christ first.

And I've been in some pretty hair-raising situations. Was I scared? Try down-right terrified! But while I'm scared of HOW I may die, I don't fear death itself. And that, is part of the peace that passes all understanding.

You know, your slur reminds me of an event that occurred on the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg. General Robert E. Lee had just given the order for his army to begin the retreat South. As he rode down Cemetary Hill, a Union Army private who was seriously wounded (the wound would ultimately cost him a leg) raised his arms and shouted "Hurrah for the Union". Lee immediately dismounted his horse and walked toward the private. The private thought that Lee was going to kill him. Instead, Lee knelt down and took the private's hand and said, "My son, I will pray for you, and hope that one day you will soon be well."

I'm not a general. Just a lowly major. But I'll close this post in the same way. "My dear Sir, I will pray for you, and hope that one day, you'll soon find peace."

Longshanks

Why worry about being told you're going to hell???
When I'm told that my response is:
"Awesome, that's where the keg will be!! !!".

Well, then those pastors are full of sh**. In fact, if you have either their addresses, email, or phone numbers, send me a pm with said information, and I will tell them personally that they are.
And yes, I'm serious.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm pretty sure he's only pulling your leg.

A "self-appointed Pharisee?" That's rather silly.

I do have a circumcised schlong, but I am not Jewish, and ergo not a Pharisee.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... senes.html


Nope. Doesn't characterize me in the least.


Au contraire, mon amour.


Watched a lot of Perry Mason, have you?


Thanks for the great compliment. But, I have so far never seen anyone, let alone a member of the Southern Baptist Church, cast demons out of anybody. I've seen them on television, pretending to. But I've never seen it actually happen.

Calling you evil would contravene the Site's rules. But, do go on.


Yes.

Doesn't that seem a bit of a stretch?


That doesn't exactly amount to selling all that you have to give the money to the poor.

Indeed?

Very well, then.


The Bible is a great body of literature. It does not contain God's will. To say so is blaspheme. You're certainly entitled to cherry-pick any passages you wish to pretend to obey, for any reason whatsoever. The Southern Baptist Convention only pretends to follow God's will as contained in the Bible.

Not yet, but you do sound a tad extremist.

This is the great obsession of Southern Baptists. If it is your choice, then there is no use for the Final Judgment. All Jesus has to say on that day is "Where do you want to go?" "Uh, Heaven?" "Okay, fine. Off you go, then"

Well, good for you.

Well, that is certainly refreshing.

Southern Baptists get paid for that?

What if I agree to do it for free?

You don't get condemned?

You cherry-pick whatever suits you, just like everyone else.

Thank you.

Such as?

That is what they always say, whilst condemning the person they've categorized as a "sinner." Otherwise, what would be the use of modern prisons and executions, if the sinners were not to be condemned?

How did you know?

Not necessarily.

He has been dead for two millenia, and doesn't need anyone to serve him.

Life insurance paid up?



Hurrah for the Union!

No, I've actually heard them say it to me - to my face. But Kraichgauer is one of the last people I'd ever want speaking for me. I do fine on my own, thanks.

Longshanks

I happen to be a Southern Baptist. It has been my experience that the most condemning and hypocritical people I have met are secular liberals.