When would slavery in the Southern States have ended...

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Thank you for the vote of confidence in us Lutherans.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Longshanks - - I'm hurt!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

It's not so much that denial of free will leaves no hope, etc. I just think it's easy for someone to mischaracterize it that way. Predestination IS in the Bible, after all. We just disagree on what exactly that means. Same with baptism, obviously; if salvation is entirely in God's hands (which I agree with, btw), then there is NO "means" of grace.

But, as you can see from my reply here (I hope), theological disputes on minutia are hardly worth Christians fighting over, and hardly condemns one solidly to eternal separation. But I do think perhaps certain people grossly misrepresent or misunderstand what Baptists are all about. In just the last 30 years so much has changed. A lot of the negative attitudes you're talking about are really more reflective of the much older crowd within our congregations. Get to know what some of your own church people in the 70s and older crowd REALLY think, and you might find that Lutherans aren't so lily-white, either. In the next generation or two, you'll really begin to see a tremendous difference in Baptists, also. We're not about condemning anyone to hell--the destiny of the soul lies in God's hands. All we seek to do is let people know that.

Non-liturgical worship, btw, is the next big thing. I don't hold traditional worship against anyone, and I don't care if you're Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, Pentecostal, or what. I'm only concerned as to whether REAL worship is actually happening, and a lot of "worship" really glorifies the believer and not God. I have a huge problem with that, and it happens with traditional worship as well as heavy-metal churches. The churches that go the non-traditional extreme who don't actually worship may draw crowds, but there's also a likelihood that they have a "revolving door" effect going on.

That's where my dissatisfaction is at the moment, and I know my days at my church are numbered. But my unhappiness is really about the attitude of the worshipers rather than theology. Probably "Baptist" is not the best way to describe my own feelings. Probably "Bapticostal" is a better term.

If everything has been pre-ordained, then the best thing is for each of us to accept our lot and get on with it. No need for remorse.

So are contrary viewpoints. No fair asserting that something IS in the Bible without providing a passage.

I don't think that there is any disagreement on what "predestination" means.

No disagreement on the definition of "baptism."

Not even by believing and reciting certain lines concerning Jesus?

Sure they are!

In my church-going days, I did have a Southern Baptist tell me that I shouldn't go to a Methodist church, because the Methodist church doesn't teach that the Bible is true. He was also one of the biggest jerks that I've ever met in my life. He and other members of his church contributed towards my feeling very badly towards Bible-thumping Baptists.

The Southern Baptists do seem to enjoy letting people know that God has condemned them to Hell. It does get annoying.

The traditional liturgy is about glorifying God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Ho-ly Ghost..." Nothing there about glorifying the believer. I think that most Baptists do take pleasure in glorifying themselves over others. Even while pretending or asserting that it is "God" whom they are glorifying.

Speaking of "Glorification of the Believer"



Baptists are very big on self-glorification. You really couldn't find another Christian denomination where the members glorified themselves more completely.

The biggest difference between an atheist or agnostic and a southern baptist, is one believes all of the accomplishments of their life were ordained by a perverse bearded ghost in the sky who hates mansex and women but wants you to drink wine and take the body of his son into your mouth (no homo). So basically one is on the nutty side and the other is not

Well, that certainly is another way of looking at it.

When people confuse faith and certainty, you know you are dealing with a defensive attitude. Usually they are just traditionalists, who are very defensive of the culture. Most people are wired for it.

The overhwhelming majority of people go with the majority religion of their birthplace and call it truth. Then you can divide that group into two factions. The larger folksey faction and the smaller and more philosophical faction. They don't play well together either.

Here is one area where the Southern Baptist Convention seriously contravenes the Bible

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=681

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=684


The Biblical Sabbath is Saturday, the seventh day of the week. Not Sunday, the first day of the week. The Jews and Seventh Day Adventists have it right. The Southern Baptists have it wrong, and are not following the Bible! !! !! God created the Universe in six days, and rested on the Seventh, NOT THE FIRST! That is why the SEVENTH day is to be a day of rest.

The Commandment is to Remember the Sabbath Day, and Keep it Holy! Saturday is the Sabbath Day, and NOT Sunday!

The Baptists are risking perdition on this one.

This is where atheist forced labor will come in handy



Since Baptists control the destiny of all mortals, they are in fact risking all of our souls

Rev. Charles L. Worley of the Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden, N.C., during a sermon, argued for the building of a large fence some 150 miles long to contain "lesbians" in one section and "homosexuals and queers" in another section. "And have that fence electrified till they can't get out," he continued. "Feed 'em. And you know what? In a few years they'll die out. Do you know why? They can't reproduce."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2n7vSPwhSU[/youtube]

Is this an example of how Baptists "hate the sin, but love the sinner?"

As a matter of fact, we Lutherans are very sacramental, and thus we do believe in the means of grace. Our confessions make it clear that the sacraments of the Eucharist and the Lord's Supper are physical manifestations of the word, and it's by the word that the Holy Spirit brings us into grace. And as God's grace is a gift, rather than a choice, we stand by infant baptism, because if God can give grace to an adult, he can give it to a baby.
And I don't have to go seeking older Lutherans to know that not all of them are lily white. The clique of older men who have been running my Lutheran Church Missouri Synod for some time now (and who are disconnected from many of our congregations - especially on the coasts) seem to think that they have to behave like Southern Baptists. And that isn't just my opinion, but is commonly held by Lutherans and Non-Lutherans alike.
And in closing - - my Pastor uses the word Bapticostal all the time.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The good Rev. Worley said he isn't going to vote for a "homosexual lover" like Obama. Well, as he considers homosexuality to be a sin, and he's supposed to love the sinner, shouldn't he, too, be a homosexual lover?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Baptists can be funny, sometimes, when they are going after each other. Regarding the issue of dancing:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 68,3449732

Dancing with a person of the other gender is just about the friendliest thing one can do with his/her clothes on.

ruveyn

Maybe they just should outlaw premarital sex so dancing doesn't break out.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer