When would slavery in the Southern States have ended...
Kraichgauer
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Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
Longshanks
Well, then those pastors are full of sh**. In fact, if you have either their addresses, email, or phone numbers, send me a pm with said information, and I will tell them personally that they are.
And yes, I'm serious.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I'm pretty sure he's only pulling your leg.
No, I've actually heard them say it to me - to my face. But Kraichgauer is one of the last people I'd ever want speaking for me. I do fine on my own, thanks.
Longshanks
Lutheran pastors typically do not go around telling people that they are going to Hell for not being Lutheran. What did you do to provoke them?
Thank you for the vote of confidence in us Lutherans.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Kraichgauer
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AngelRho
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As for your point about denial of free will leaving no hope for those in doubt - our salvation, we believe, is entirely in Gods hands, not in ours. Even if our faith falters, God still holds us in grace. Same with baptism. We do believe that it's a means of grace, and that it's dependent on God and his free gift, not on us.
And yes, I do concede, there are Lutherans who practice non-liturgical worship, but they are a minority. We have no problem with this. We do have a problem with those who hold traditional worship against us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's not so much that denial of free will leaves no hope, etc. I just think it's easy for someone to mischaracterize it that way. Predestination IS in the Bible, after all. We just disagree on what exactly that means. Same with baptism, obviously; if salvation is entirely in God's hands (which I agree with, btw), then there is NO "means" of grace.
But, as you can see from my reply here (I hope), theological disputes on minutia are hardly worth Christians fighting over, and hardly condemns one solidly to eternal separation. But I do think perhaps certain people grossly misrepresent or misunderstand what Baptists are all about. In just the last 30 years so much has changed. A lot of the negative attitudes you're talking about are really more reflective of the much older crowd within our congregations. Get to know what some of your own church people in the 70s and older crowd REALLY think, and you might find that Lutherans aren't so lily-white, either. In the next generation or two, you'll really begin to see a tremendous difference in Baptists, also. We're not about condemning anyone to hell--the destiny of the soul lies in God's hands. All we seek to do is let people know that.
Non-liturgical worship, btw, is the next big thing. I don't hold traditional worship against anyone, and I don't care if you're Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, Pentecostal, or what. I'm only concerned as to whether REAL worship is actually happening, and a lot of "worship" really glorifies the believer and not God. I have a huge problem with that, and it happens with traditional worship as well as heavy-metal churches. The churches that go the non-traditional extreme who don't actually worship may draw crowds, but there's also a likelihood that they have a "revolving door" effect going on.
That's where my dissatisfaction is at the moment, and I know my days at my church are numbered. But my unhappiness is really about the attitude of the worshipers rather than theology. Probably "Baptist" is not the best way to describe my own feelings. Probably "Bapticostal" is a better term.
If everything has been pre-ordained, then the best thing is for each of us to accept our lot and get on with it. No need for remorse.
Speaking of "Glorification of the Believer"
The biggest difference between me and an athiest or an agnostic is that I know, beyond any doubt, that God loved me so much, that he not only gave me a drop-dead, gorgeous, knock-out wife, a couple of great daughters, grandkids, a fulfilling military career, a roof over my head, food on my table, and a hedge of protection in battle, but also gave me His only begotten Son that I may spend my eternity Him either after death or after rapture. I'm saved and my place is sealed.
Baptists are very big on self-glorification. You really couldn't find another Christian denomination where the members glorified themselves more completely.
Baptists are very big on self-glorification. You really couldn't find another Christian denomination where the members glorified themselves more completely.
The biggest difference between an atheist or agnostic and a southern baptist, is one believes all of the accomplishments of their life were ordained by a perverse bearded ghost in the sky who hates mansex and women but wants you to drink wine and take the body of his son into your mouth (no homo). So basically one is on the nutty side and the other is not
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Baptists are very big on self-glorification. You really couldn't find another Christian denomination where the members glorified themselves more completely.
The biggest difference between an atheist or agnostic and a southern baptist, is one believes all of the accomplishments of their life were ordained by a perverse bearded ghost in the sky who hates mansex and women but wants you to drink wine and take the body of his son into your mouth (no homo). So basically one is on the nutty side and the other is not
Well, that certainly is another way of looking at it.
When people confuse faith and certainty, you know you are dealing with a defensive attitude. Usually they are just traditionalists, who are very defensive of the culture. Most people are wired for it.
The overhwhelming majority of people go with the majority religion of their birthplace and call it truth. Then you can divide that group into two factions. The larger folksey faction and the smaller and more philosophical faction. They don't play well together either.
Here is one area where the Southern Baptist Convention seriously contravenes the Bible
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=681
May 1936
1. That we renew our efforts to preserve the Christian sabbath and urge our people everywhere to abstain from purely secular and worldly engagements on the Lord's day.
2. That we especially deplore the wide use of the radio for advertising and for flippant jazz entertainment on the Lord's day, and we would favor legislation to prevent all Sunday advertising over the radio and all cheap vaudeville programs on Sunday.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=684
June 1973
WHEREAS, We are seeing an accelerated secularization of Sunday in America, we reaffirm our belief that, for Christians, Sunday should be the Lord's Day, a day for worship, spiritual renewal, and family life, and
WHEREAS, Many deacons, choir members, Sunday School teachers, and others of our people, including our youth, are facing, or may soon face, the need for choosing between their Sunday worship and Sunday work, we reaffirm our belief in each individual's right to a time for worship according to the dictates of his conscience, and
WHEREAS, As Christians, we celebrate our Lord's resurrection on this Day, and
WHEREAS, Sunday as a day of rest has made a unique contribution to our nation's strength and life.
Therefore, Be it RESOLVED, That we humbly petition the governing bodies of states and municipalities to take primary responsibility for preserving the unique character of Sunday as a day for rest and human welfare, and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we urge all pastors, teachers, and leaders to provide instruction as to the true significance of this day, in its spiritual values, in its proper use, and in the abiding obligations we have under God's moral law, and
Be it therefore further RESOLVED, That we instruct all agencies, boards, and committees to make due efforts to protect Sundays from scheduled activities and employ on Sunday only those personnel needed to carry on only absolutely necessary activities.
The Biblical Sabbath is Saturday, the seventh day of the week. Not Sunday, the first day of the week. The Jews and Seventh Day Adventists have it right. The Southern Baptists have it wrong, and are not following the Bible! !! !! God created the Universe in six days, and rested on the Seventh, NOT THE FIRST! That is why the SEVENTH day is to be a day of rest.
The Commandment is to Remember the Sabbath Day, and Keep it Holy! Saturday is the Sabbath Day, and NOT Sunday!
The Baptists are risking perdition on this one.
This is where atheist forced labor will come in handy
Since Baptists control the destiny of all mortals, they are in fact risking all of our souls
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Rev. Charles L. Worley of the Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden, N.C., during a sermon, argued for the building of a large fence some 150 miles long to contain "lesbians" in one section and "homosexuals and queers" in another section. "And have that fence electrified till they can't get out," he continued. "Feed 'em. And you know what? In a few years they'll die out. Do you know why? They can't reproduce."
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2n7vSPwhSU[/youtube]
Is this an example of how Baptists "hate the sin, but love the sinner?"
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,796
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
As for your point about denial of free will leaving no hope for those in doubt - our salvation, we believe, is entirely in Gods hands, not in ours. Even if our faith falters, God still holds us in grace. Same with baptism. We do believe that it's a means of grace, and that it's dependent on God and his free gift, not on us.
And yes, I do concede, there are Lutherans who practice non-liturgical worship, but they are a minority. We have no problem with this. We do have a problem with those who hold traditional worship against us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
It's not so much that denial of free will leaves no hope, etc. I just think it's easy for someone to mischaracterize it that way. Predestination IS in the Bible, after all. We just disagree on what exactly that means. Same with baptism, obviously; if salvation is entirely in God's hands (which I agree with, btw), then there is NO "means" of grace.
But, as you can see from my reply here (I hope), theological disputes on minutia are hardly worth Christians fighting over, and hardly condemns one solidly to eternal separation. But I do think perhaps certain people grossly misrepresent or misunderstand what Baptists are all about. In just the last 30 years so much has changed. A lot of the negative attitudes you're talking about are really more reflective of the much older crowd within our congregations. Get to know what some of your own church people in the 70s and older crowd REALLY think, and you might find that Lutherans aren't so lily-white, either. In the next generation or two, you'll really begin to see a tremendous difference in Baptists, also. We're not about condemning anyone to hell--the destiny of the soul lies in God's hands. All we seek to do is let people know that.
Non-liturgical worship, btw, is the next big thing. I don't hold traditional worship against anyone, and I don't care if you're Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, Pentecostal, or what. I'm only concerned as to whether REAL worship is actually happening, and a lot of "worship" really glorifies the believer and not God. I have a huge problem with that, and it happens with traditional worship as well as heavy-metal churches. The churches that go the non-traditional extreme who don't actually worship may draw crowds, but there's also a likelihood that they have a "revolving door" effect going on.
That's where my dissatisfaction is at the moment, and I know my days at my church are numbered. But my unhappiness is really about the attitude of the worshipers rather than theology. Probably "Baptist" is not the best way to describe my own feelings. Probably "Bapticostal" is a better term.
As a matter of fact, we Lutherans are very sacramental, and thus we do believe in the means of grace. Our confessions make it clear that the sacraments of the Eucharist and the Lord's Supper are physical manifestations of the word, and it's by the word that the Holy Spirit brings us into grace. And as God's grace is a gift, rather than a choice, we stand by infant baptism, because if God can give grace to an adult, he can give it to a baby.
And I don't have to go seeking older Lutherans to know that not all of them are lily white. The clique of older men who have been running my Lutheran Church Missouri Synod for some time now (and who are disconnected from many of our congregations - especially on the coasts) seem to think that they have to behave like Southern Baptists. And that isn't just my opinion, but is commonly held by Lutherans and Non-Lutherans alike.
And in closing - - my Pastor uses the word Bapticostal all the time.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,796
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2n7vSPwhSU[/youtube]
Is this an example of how Baptists "hate the sin, but love the sinner?"
The good Rev. Worley said he isn't going to vote for a "homosexual lover" like Obama. Well, as he considers homosexuality to be a sin, and he's supposed to love the sinner, shouldn't he, too, be a homosexual lover?
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Baptists can be funny, sometimes, when they are going after each other. Regarding the issue of dancing:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 68,3449732
"Any man who says he can dance and keep his thoughts pure is less than a man or a liar," Buell cried, and a great chorus of amens went up.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 68,3449732
"Any man who says he can dance and keep his thoughts pure is less than a man or a liar," Buell cried, and a great chorus of amens went up.
Dancing with a person of the other gender is just about the friendliest thing one can do with his/her clothes on.
ruveyn
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,796
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 68,3449732
"Any man who says he can dance and keep his thoughts pure is less than a man or a liar," Buell cried, and a great chorus of amens went up.
Maybe they just should outlaw premarital sex so dancing doesn't break out.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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