Pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian?

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Does anyone know how I can change the poll? I tried to add "Neutral" and "Don't know", but it didn't send through. GAHHHH!! !! !! !

Do mean that you tried to add it after you posted it?
Then there isnt anything you can do about it.

But even if its part of the original post some times the last option in polls Ive posted dont appear in the posted version- much to my dismay.
Once when that happened I protested in the thread, and a moderator came along and announced that he "corrected it", and the missing option appeared as I intended.

I'm impressed (and I never say that lightly).

I was going to post something tantamount to that.

Smarties for you! *hands box of Smarties over*

I'm going to state the obvious and point out that it would turn Jerusalem into a war zone...

It is the 3rd most holy site for Islam and the 1st most holy site for Judaism.

I think Israel has every right to keep Jerusalem, unless Saudi Arabia is willing to turn Mecca over to Jewish People and/or the Vatican...

1st most holy vs. 3rd most holy

Sorry the Jewish People consider Jerusalem more holy than Muslims do.

Why would Christians or Jews want to own Mecca? Neither religion has a claim to it.
And if the truth be known, all this talk about so called holy sites is just ludicrous to me. As far as where Christianity is localized, I'll take Christ's word for it ans say it's where ever two or three believers are together.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm surprised how many people are pro-Israeli.
I read a lot of independent articles by activists, diplomats and so on. They say even prominent Jews of the world are disgusted by what's going on in Israel. I think there were Jewish protests in London.

Israel is an illegal state, it was estabilished by a violent conquest and it's full of armed settlements on legitimate Palestinian territory. I suspect the main purpose of it was that Americans needed someone to do the dirty job in middle East, a powerful allied military presence in the region. Even my country sold there tanks and other weapons that remained after Nazis. What an irony.

I'd like people to live together, but that's impossible, there is too much spilled blood on both sides. The only solution are two states, but Palestinians must get a fair share of their original territory. All offers they got so far were quite ridiculous and Yasir Arafat was right to reject them.
I have nothing against common Israeli citizens, but I consider their top politicians and military leaders just plain crazy and paranoid. And as enemies influence us the most, by now Palestinian leaders will not be nice guys either.

I am in favor of Palestinians, they were there first, but it's impossible to set it back as it was, that would create even more harm. The situation there is very dangerous, as Israel has nukes and Iran is constantly threatened into developing its own nukes. Israel is a very aggressive state and there were more than 60 UN resolutions issued against it, though USA vetoed them all. I believe Israel has the main guilt in terms of international law and war crimes and it deserves all the sanctions.

I agree with those who spoke of secularism, religions need to be thrown off the table so we can call things by their real names. God is not a real estate agent and no book can allow you to invade a country or give you a permit to return to a place where our ancestors were thousands years ago. And even if I'm in favor of Palestinians, I'm not in favor of the violent religious zeal they developed to cope with this injustice. On the contrary, I've read about camps for children where children of Israel and Palestine form mixed groups and get along very well, then they go back to their enviroment and they know that on the other side are people too.

Anti-nationalism.

Problem solved.

Technically, he said he would be wherever two or three believers would be together, not that holy sites would be. Of course those parts of Protestantism who don't acknowledge that a place or item can be holy won't acknowledge holy sites, though. Except a few Pentecostals/charismatics I used to know, who claim no place or item is holy, but still love wearing their "I was baptized in the river of Jordan" T-shirt... Some Christian Zionists also seem to give the Temple site a very high significance, almost higher than Jews. And get them started on the Ark of the Covenant, and you won't hear the end of it. They seem to misinterpret Judaism (I won't claim I have perfect knowledge of Judaism, by the way, but at least I've studied it academically, if only on a basic level) into giving the Ark close to magic properties.

But no matter the viewpoint, acknowledging that some places and sites are significant to different groups, shouldn't be a problem. Judaism has been centered about the Temple since Solomon, and of course that geographical location will be important to them. Just like the Patriarchal sees are important to most parts of Christianity, even after the schism - important enough to make Rome build substitute Patriarchal basilicas in Rome, since the proper sees were now Eastern Orthodox or Oriental. And most Orthodox still speak highly of the significance of the see of Rome, even though they disagree with its bishop. Most Jewish theologies agree that offerings and Temple worship should only take place where the first Temple was built (which is why their sacrifices ceased after been driven out by the emperor), and holy sites, reserved buildings for worship and holy/blessed items have been central in the Judeo-Christian tradition(s) up until the Reformation, and still only (some parts of) Protestantism refutes the existence of such places. While I guess holy items are even less acknowledged than places. So even though I've never heard a Jew speaking of rebuilding the temple before the coming of the Messiah (that seems to be more of a Christian Zionist, and to some extent, Dispensationalist, preoccupation), it is a fact that Judaism isn't "complete" unless there is a temple on that exact spot.

I'm a Mainline Protestant, and so I definitely don't buy into this Christian Zionist hysteria about rebuilding the temple.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

From your statement, I didn't suspect you of buying into it Christian Zionists does nothing but hurt Christians in the Middle East - Christian Palestinians are viewed as traitors because "Christians support the Israelis," and Christian Jews are told that "Christians from Europe say Jews should remain Jews". I'll neither agree to nor oppose the latter statement, but in any case Jews shouldn't make trouble for Jews who convert. The Christian Zionists contribute to that attitude.

I'm Catholic, though, regarding theology, so I have no problem accepting the Jewish view of the Temple site as sacred. It has major significance in both Judaism and Christianity, albeit primarily in a historic sense in Christianity - the new sacrifice in the new covenant can be offered from any altar, and the Temple as such does no more have a significance in cult. Except some symbols and liturgical practices, which is very apparent in the Ethiopian Church, whose liturgy and local tradition has an abundance of references to the Temple.

Anyway, Jews don't seem to be set on rebuilding it, as that will be linked to the arrival of the Messiah (again, for the record, I won't claim to be a scholar of Judaism, so it's merely my impression). That hysteria (which describes it pretty well, good wording there) seems to be primarily present in splinter groups of Protestantism. But no matter one's own theology, it should be pretty clear that Jewish theology does acknowledge sacred places and objects (as evident by the restriction of sacrificial cult to the Temple in its original location, and hence the current cessation of sacrificial practice, and how the Torah is treated during their Synagogue services), and hence at the very least one should acknowledge the internal logic of their claim. What significance that would have externally, is of course quite another question.

I am PRO JESUS!
(I am crying from laughing just from posting this)

Priceless!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

yay!! Smarties!! ! *tickle*



Obvious to who? The Irrational Response Squad?



It is also the holy site for Raëlians where they want to establish a temple, perhaps since it is their 1st by this logic they should also have claim to Jerusalem



This is such a stupid example



In my religion, with the worship of dark and mighty Atheogococeles, the 1st most holy site is your town, so clear out or there will be trouble!



And? What about all the Amerindian and Mesoamerican religious sites desecrated and paved over by our nations? If we are going to use holiness as the doctrine for real estate, you can't be selective in which religions you choose to recognize now, can you? That would be religious persecution!

^^^


You shouldn't play with your food you know...

I thought you were the huntress?

I wouldnt pick sides in that mess but I will note that the Israelis have a functioning democracy and do elect peacemakers from time to time. THey can point to peace with Egypt and many close calls with the Palesitinians. The Palestianians have never had to act like adults. Eventually they will become serious partners and get lucky with a decent Israeli leader.