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Hate crime statistics deflate "Islamophobia" myth

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thomas81
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12 Jan 2013, 5:48 pm

TheValk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
You seem to be under the belief that Islamic culture (which is in itself partly a misnomer since Islam covers many nations) became predominantly pertinent in the UK or elsewhere this would somehow represent a dilution of western values. I dont necessarilly believe this would happen. The holy Roman empire, rather than persecute or annilhate Christians amalgamated it into their own way of life. This is no way made them 'less' Roman or traitorous to their heritage.


The Romans did persecute the early Christians long enough before swallowing them up to give birth to proto-Catholicism.


I'm aware of that. The point is, after they amalgamated Christianity, it ceased to be a problem.

I'm saying maybe we need the same solution to the 'islamic question'.


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TheValk
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12 Jan 2013, 5:54 pm

thomas81 wrote:
TheValk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
You seem to be under the belief that Islamic culture (which is in itself partly a misnomer since Islam covers many nations) became predominantly pertinent in the UK or elsewhere this would somehow represent a dilution of western values. I dont necessarilly believe this would happen. The holy Roman empire, rather than persecute or annilhate Christians amalgamated it into their own way of life. This is no way made them 'less' Roman or traitorous to their heritage.


The Romans did persecute the early Christians long enough before swallowing them up to give birth to proto-Catholicism.


I'm aware of that. The point is, after they amalgamated Christianity, it ceased to be a problem.

I'm saying maybe we need the same solution to the 'islamic question'.


I wouldn't say Christianity was dangerous until the Roman Empire neutralised it; quite the opposite (the monster put on a christlike mask to conceal its natural grimace). The reasons for persecuting Christians were such that would be considered inhumane according to modern morality.

Well, we already have a modern equivalent with Islam. The European Muslims (the ones integrated into the society anyway) are nothing like the Muslims everybody is paranoid about. They are, in fact, very much just European men with European values who happen to pray to Allah. Would those Muslims people fear want to associate with them and is it true Islam? That's a different question.



Tequila
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12 Jan 2013, 5:58 pm

TheValk wrote:
The European Muslims (the ones integrated into the society anyway) are nothing like the Muslims everybody is paranoid about. They are, in fact, very much just European men with European values who happen to pray to Allah.


Would these be people who would be happy for a non-Muslim man to date his Muslim sister (or to marry a non-Muslim woman who refused to convert to Islam or to bring up their kids in that religion) or for that sister to have sex outside marriage if she wished? How would he deal with apostates (under Sharia, apostates are to be killed)? If all the answers to this point to accepting Western values, I don't have any problem at all with a man like that and I'd happily spend time with them if we get on. There are people like this (although I believe they're ex-Muslims) on here and we more or less agree on many things.



Jono
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12 Jan 2013, 6:05 pm

thomas81 wrote:
TheValk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
You seem to be under the belief that Islamic culture (which is in itself partly a misnomer since Islam covers many nations) became predominantly pertinent in the UK or elsewhere this would somehow represent a dilution of western values. I dont necessarilly believe this would happen. The holy Roman empire, rather than persecute or annilhate Christians amalgamated it into their own way of life. This is no way made them 'less' Roman or traitorous to their heritage.


The Romans did persecute the early Christians long enough before swallowing them up to give birth to proto-Catholicism.


I'm aware of that. The point is, after they amalgamated Christianity, it ceased to be a problem.

I'm saying maybe we need the same solution to the 'islamic question'.


When the Romans stopped persecuting the christians, the christians started persecuting everybody else and actually forced them to convert to Christianity. The pagans were actually a hell of a lot more tolerant than what the christians were at the time. Yeah, a fat lot good integrating them into Roman society did. Far from ceasing to be a problem, the christians totally and utterly obliterated the culture that came before it, the persecuted became the persecutor. I really wouldn't want the same thing to happen in the modern west.



Last edited by Jono on 12 Jan 2013, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheValk
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12 Jan 2013, 6:07 pm

Tequila wrote:
TheValk wrote:
The European Muslims (the ones integrated into the society anyway) are nothing like the Muslims everybody is paranoid about. They are, in fact, very much just European men with European values who happen to pray to Allah.


Would these be people who would be happy for a non-Muslim man to date his Muslim sister (or to marry a non-Muslim woman who refused to convert to Islam or to bring up their kids in that religion) or for that sister to have sex outside marriage if she wished? How would he deal with apostates (under Sharia, apostates are to be killed)? If all the answers to this point to accepting Western values, I don't have any problem at all with a man like that and I'd happily spend time with them if we get on. There are people like this (although I believe they're ex-Muslims) on here and we more or less agree on many things.


People may or may not be happy about what their children wish to do with their lives for whatever reason, religion being out of many. My parents are secular and Father is unhealthily opposed to me entering a relationship with anyone in any context.

Anyway, is your first question a rhetorical one? Muslims are different; some may have married somebody outside of their faith in the previous generation already and would be unlikely to demand such restrictions that they found unnecessary for themselves. My sister is currently dating a (rather secular) Muslim man; I have to say we both take this question seriously.



Tequila
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12 Jan 2013, 6:14 pm

TheValk wrote:
Anyway, is your first question a rhetorical one?


No, my first question refers to the demand in Islam that only Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, and if they do the non-Muslim women can convert to Islam. Muslim women aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim men.



anongamer
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12 Jan 2013, 6:16 pm

One thing I see is here is something people here forget that this is an austism and asperger's forum. It is not a NT forum.

I admit it. I hate muslims. I won't go anywhere near them, patronise their businesses or service, let alone befriend them. I will go far as to say I don't want to see them on the street. (I won't go as far to say as I want them wiped out, but as long as they are not near me).

Maybe hate is a strong word (considering I am apathetic most of the time). I probably just have an irrational fear of them.

But that is enough. We (aspies) have strong interests, but at the same time we have strong dislikes. They make be rational, they may be irrational. We have issues with anger management, tantrums, etc.

I'm currently looking for a new place to move to where there arn't any (or 1 in 1000) because it affects me that much.



Last edited by anongamer on 12 Jan 2013, 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheValk
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12 Jan 2013, 6:16 pm

Tequila wrote:
TheValk wrote:
Anyway, is your first question a rhetorical one?


No, my first question refers to the demand in Islam that only Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, and if they do the non-Muslim women can convert to Islam. Muslim women aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim men.


Yet they do. Religion is also not something that one tends to drop out of, and the opposite is just as possible - return to the roots so to say, with all the expected consequences for the secular/unfaithful wife. Very much a cause for concern to my mind.



Tequila
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12 Jan 2013, 6:18 pm

TheValk wrote:
Yet they do.


Some eat pork, drink vast amounts of alcohol, fornicate with unmarried kafir women, etc etc.

There is a lot of picking and choosing by Muslims going on, I feel. To be honest, I'm not sure I blame them - trying to adhere to a 7th century text must drive anyone up the wall.

According to the Islamic holy texts, they are not true Muslims and according to those texts should be punished from straying from the true path of Allah.



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12 Jan 2013, 6:22 pm

anongamer wrote:
One thing I see is here is something people here forget that this is an austism and asperger's forum. It is not a NT forum.

I admit it. I hate muslims. I won't go anywhere near them, patronise their businesses or service, let alone befriend them. I will go far as to say I don't want to see them on the street. (I won't go as far to say as I want them wiped out, but as long as they are not near me).

Maybe hate is a strong word (considering I am apathetic most of the time). I probably just have an irrational fear of them.

But that is enough. We (aspies) have strong interests, but at the same time we have strong dislikes. They make be rational, they may be irrational. We have issues with anger management, tantrums, etc.

I'm currently looking for a new place to move to where there aren't any (or 1 in 1000) because it affects me that much.

Ever heard the phrase "Attack The Argument, Not The Person"?



TheValk
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12 Jan 2013, 6:25 pm

Tequila wrote:
TheValk wrote:
Yet they do.


Some eat pork, drink vast amounts of alcohol, fornicate with unmarried kafir women, etc etc.

There is a lot of picking and choosing by Muslims going on, I feel. To be honest, I'm not sure I blame them - trying to adhere to a 7th century text must drive anyone up the wall.

According to the Islamic holy texts, they are not true Muslims and according to those texts should be punished from straying from the true path of Allah.


The contexts are very much different, indeed. Mohammad was constantly at war; living in modern Europe in relative peace, there may be none, hence some particularly fanatic types will seek to cause little ones in their daily life.

Also according to Muslim theology, the prophets are more than capable to repair a person's misdeeds in the afterlife, given the time. It seems the ambiguity of interpretation does not diminish much if we move on from Christianity to Islam assuming a good knowledge of both. I wish I had a better command of the subject because it is somewhat important to my family for reasons I previously brought up.



anongamer
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12 Jan 2013, 6:29 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Ever heard the phrase "Attack The Argument, Not The Person"?


Did you read the rest of my post? It was all about not having the objectivity of an NT.

People that visibly look South Asian or middle eastern scare me. So does any muslim characteristics (ie. long unkempt beards, headwear etc). That is enough for me.

We will never be politicians or CEOs or other positions of power. But we can only do things that is best for ourselves and our own sanity and well being.

I have the phobia in the literal sense. Great fear of Muslims.



Tequila
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12 Jan 2013, 6:39 pm

anongamer wrote:
Great fear of Muslims.


And Sikhs?



anongamer
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12 Jan 2013, 6:40 pm

Tequila wrote:
anongamer wrote:
Great fear of Muslims.


And Sikhs?


Yep lol, but the frequency of seeing them is very low.



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12 Jan 2013, 6:43 pm

anongamer wrote:
Yep lol.


Even though they're responsible for almost none of the bad practices that people associate with Islam? Hindus too have big beards going, but a lot of them have absolutely zero time for Islam. (And there's the small matter of the India-Pakistan conflicts.)

I don't mind Muslims. I don't mind Hindus or Sikhs either. I don't mind anyone, as long as they're not absolute arsecakes (and Nick Griffin is in the 'arsecake' category). And there are a lot of those amongst the white population too.



thomas81
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12 Jan 2013, 6:45 pm

TheValk wrote:

I wouldn't say Christianity was dangerous until the Roman Empire neutralised it; quite the opposite (the monster put on a christlike mask to conceal its natural grimace). The reasons for persecuting Christians were such that would be considered inhumane according to modern morality.


Whether or not one views Islam as a 'threat' to either christianity or even our indigenous culture depends on your worldview, personal analysis and ultimately your politics. Its therefore a strawman to compare the two in this way.
TheValk wrote:
Well, we already have a modern equivalent with Islam. The European Muslims (the ones integrated into the society anyway) are nothing like the Muslims everybody is paranoid about.

'Everybody?' or just pathological right wing nut jobs?
TheValk wrote:
They are, in fact, very much just European men with European values who happen to pray to Allah. Would those Muslims people fear want to associate with them and is it true Islam? That's a different question.

I would say they dispute the meaning of 'true islam' in much the same way moderate christians would argue that abortion clinic bombers or the westboro baptist church do not hold a monopoly on 'true christianity'.


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