Can a state work with religion as the ruler?

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white_as_snow
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09 Dec 2014, 7:04 pm

Can a state, that is 100 % based on religion actully work? Thru history all have failed due to extreme views on the religion.

I think the New Testement is very peaceful and could work as the law.



Fnord
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09 Dec 2014, 7:18 pm

Which part of the New Testament? The part that says women should remain silent in the Temple? The part that says a woman caught in adultery must be stoned to death (but not the man she is having adulterous sex with)? The part where escaped slaves are sent back to their masters? The part where all that it takes to convict a person of a crime is for two men to say that the person committed the crime, regardless of any evidence to the contrary? The part where those who speak out against the established religious order are either crucified or stoned to death?

The Christian and Islamic religions were established by men to keep men in power and to keep women and minorities oppressed, enslaved, or both. This means that only men would be allowed to own property, run the government, stand in judgment over others, and decide who lives and who dies on a day-to-day basis.

If this is what you want, then why don't you just immigrate to Iran?


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Moviefan2k4
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09 Dec 2014, 7:43 pm

white_as_snow wrote:
Can a state, that is 100 % based on religion actually work? Thru history all have failed due to extreme views on the religion.

I think the New Testement is very peaceful and could work as the law.
Most of the laws in the U.S. are based on the Ten Commandments, found in both Testaments. Even rules not usually associated with the Bible are sourced in it. For example, the purpose of a speed limit is to make sure no one ends up injured or dead from a selfish driver. This connects to both "do not commit murder" and Jesus' command to "love your neighbor as yourself".

Theodore Roosevelt summed up our present condition as a country with chilling accuracy, in this statement...

"The United States was founded on the principle of Christianity. Every thinking man, when he thinks, realizes that the teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life, that it would be literally - I do not mean figuratively, but literally - impossible for us to figure what the loss would be if these teachings were removed. We would lose all the standards by which we now judge both public and private morals; all the standards towards which we, with more or less resolution, strive to raise ourselves."


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kraftiekortie
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09 Dec 2014, 7:46 pm

I believe in an absolutely FIRM separation of "church and state."

What religion one practices is their business.

It must not influence any secular laws which are enacted.

The danger: Just look at ISIS and the Taliban!

And.....HISTORY!! !! !!



Fnord
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09 Dec 2014, 8:14 pm

Theodore Roosevelt was wrong on many other occasions, too.


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Persimmonpudding
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09 Dec 2014, 8:14 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Most of the laws in the U.S. are based on the Ten Commandments, found in both Testaments.
The closest thing there is to any such thing, in any tradition, is in Exodus 20, and the problem is that Exodus 21 justifies slavery. Exodus 22:18 justifies witch-burning.



Fnord
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09 Dec 2014, 8:21 pm

Persimmonpudding wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Most of the laws in the U.S. are based on the Ten Commandments, found in both Testaments.
The closest thing there is to any such thing, in any tradition, is in Exodus 20, and the problem is that Exodus 21 justifies slavery.
America was founded on the principles of slavery, the subjugation of women, and conquest by genocide.

Come to think of it ... that describes most Biblical principles, as well!

So maybe America was founded on Biblical principles, after all!

:lol:


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Persimmonpudding
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09 Dec 2014, 8:26 pm

Fnord wrote:
Persimmonpudding wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Most of the laws in the U.S. are based on the Ten Commandments, found in both Testaments.
The closest thing there is to any such thing, in any tradition, is in Exodus 20, and the problem is that Exodus 21 justifies slavery.
America was founded on the principles of slavery, the subjugation of women, and conquest by genocide.

Come to think of it ... that describes most Biblical principles, as well!

So maybe America was founded on Biblical principles, after all!

:lol:
*facepalms* Politics were at the bottom of the slavery thing. The evolution of American republicanism was very complex and based on precedents in English law.



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09 Dec 2014, 8:36 pm

Politics, schmolitics ... People who say that America was founded on Biblical principles are telling only half of the story.

Slavery? Levitican law and the apostle Paul established how slaves should be bought, sold, and treated.

Subjugation of Women? Sure, Esther was a queen, but how many of the apostles were women? If any were, then why aren't their gospels printed?

Conquest by genocide? An easy parallel can be drawn between Israelites vs. Canaanites and Colonists/Settlers vs. Indiginous/Native Americans. In both cases, the idea was to take the land after killing its previous inhabitants.

Yeah ... A straight line can be drawn from the Bible to the founding of America.

And Christians are actually proud of this!

:roll:


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trollcatman
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09 Dec 2014, 8:53 pm

white_as_snow wrote:
Can a state, that is 100 % based on religion actully work? Thru history all have failed due to extreme views on the religion.

I think the New Testement is very peaceful and could work as the law.


Why pick the New Testament? You could pick any religion and give it a go. Saudi Arabia and Iran are pretty much theocracies and they are still around.



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09 Dec 2014, 9:14 pm

Only if you hate freedom.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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09 Dec 2014, 9:24 pm

Nope.



SilverProteus
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10 Dec 2014, 5:10 am

Religion just makes such a mental muck of things that I'm convinced that any political system based on any religion would be a huge step backwards.


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kraftiekortie
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10 Dec 2014, 9:25 am

While religion has some fine moral precepts at times, it basically is an anti-democratic entity (especially in light of the existence of the "Supreme Being")--hence, unsuitable as a basis for laws.



Grommit
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10 Dec 2014, 9:55 am

Can we not just have a religion where it is not used for control, greed and power. A religion that believes in looking after there brother and sister regardless of race, colour, and traditions. I've never read the bible but at least the 10 commandments make sense to me. If man could treat each other and the planet properly and live harmoniously and we shared our god given gifts then mabee we might not need to rely on god so much.



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10 Dec 2014, 10:07 am

Grommit wrote:
... I've never read the bible...

Go ahead and read it. Take notes, especially on those parts where women are treated badly; where the rules for buying, owning, and selling slave are detailed; and where entire populations are slaughtered to seize their loot and land.


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