Who created God?

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CaptainTrips222
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07 Mar 2013, 10:12 pm

uwmonkdm wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Why is God necessarily more complex than a human?

Before the universe began, there was no time. Therefore, it is impossible for there to be any regression of designers.

I'm failing to see any contradiction in omniscience. "What about unknown unknowns?" There are no unknown unknowns if you are omniscient.

You don't know that.
You can't even say with certainty that time exists now, or when it started.
Let us not forget that time is only a created concept of the human mind... I suppose that means you're right though :lol:

Yeah, like, maybe to a walrus or a toad it's like, dude, there IS no time!

AspieOtaku
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08 Mar 2013, 12:45 am

Man created god!

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08 Mar 2013, 1:27 am

There is always the possiblity that it was the "nothing" before god that created god itself. Sounds silly especially if your bias against the idea of god or gods. But we know that in "nothing" there is always chance of a spontaneous occurrence of energy and becuz within "nothing" their would be no reference point or view motion. Thus you could not say how much time had pass before the creation of god. It could have been in an instant or an eternity you couldn't say ether way.

I for one don't believe in god but I don't think its creation is that much of an issue, as lets say.......whether or not it would realy have any effect on the universe today.

As for man's idea of God, yeah we can totaly thank the dolphins for that.

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08 Mar 2013, 2:29 am

Carl Sagan on "God" and "gods"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-_DdX8Ke0[/youtube]

ripped
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08 Mar 2013, 3:15 am

It never occurred to the atheists that it is a miracle that anything should exist at all.

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08 Mar 2013, 3:37 am

Jono wrote:

The video also explains why the concept of omniscience, or all-knowing, is actually a complete and utter logical contradiction. The reason for that is that knowing everything implies also knowing unknown unknowns (things that you don't even know that there is to know), which by definition, can't be known.

This sort of thing is no more a problem for religion than it is for set theory. It's a problem for *naive* religion in the same way that it's a problem for naive set theory. This really is the exact same argument that proves that the set of all sets can't exist.

You don't provide a good definition of unknown unknowns, and I don't want to bother watching a 10 minute video that makes a bad argument, but let's assume that they are defined in a way that makes sense and is truly self-contradictory. Omniscience implies that the omniscient being knows everything that can be known. Unknown unknowns cannot be known by definition. Therefore, omniscience doesn't imply the knowledge of unknown unknowns, so there is no contradiction.

You might try to make an objection that this is limiting God's knowledge, but that doesn't work either, since unknowable things aren't knowledge.

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The_Walrus
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08 Mar 2013, 3:55 pm

ripped wrote:

It never occurred to the atheists that it is a miracle that anything should exist at all.

I think it has occurred to many atheists that it is a miracle that stuff exists and a miracle that we can perceive it. However, it is also guaranteed- every observable universe contains life capable of observing it. Additionally, we have mechanisms which explain the evolution of life and we could one day find a similar explanation for the origin of the universe (i.e. what caused the Big Bang).

Jono wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Sign...

An omniscience being would know everything. There would be no "unknown unknowns". There would be no unknowns.

The set "everything" includes what you or I would call "unknown unknowns". For the traditional God, nothing is unknown.

I'm not sure what you're finding hard to grasp here... omniscient means "knowing everything". Saying "but what about things you don't know you don't know?" doesn't challenge that. Unknown unknowns are eradicated by a being that knows everything.

Which again is logically impossible. Ok, consider the set of unknown unknowns. If there were no unknown unknowns, that means the set is empty. But even if the set is empty, it impossible to know that the set is empty because by their very definition, it impossible to know what is in that set. The fact that you don't know what is in that set is also an unknown, which is logically impossible to know because that would be a logical contradiction. Therefore even if we except it as a given that the set we call "everything", includes even the unknown unknowns, including knowing what is in the set of unknown unknowns, then it follows that knowing "everything" is logically impossible because knowing that one thing is logically impossible.

So basically, the argument is that the concept of omniscience is logically impossible because it's logically impossible to know that you know everything. I think you are failing to grasp my argument. By the way, did you watch the video?

I watched the first few minutes of the video where an annoying angel explained to God the infinite regression of designers implied by the teleological argument and then said that omniscience was impossible because you couldn't know all unknown unknowns.

I really think a logical leap is being made here. Your argument seems somewhat circular. Mind you, omniscience is itself quite circular.

Unknown unknowns possess no challenge for an omniscient being- it knows that there is nothing it does not know.

CaptainTrips222
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08 Mar 2013, 4:49 pm

God worships and prays to a being known as Dod.

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08 Mar 2013, 5:43 pm

ripped wrote:

It never occurred to the atheists that it is a miracle that anything should exist at all.

You're not as smart or clever as you think you are.

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08 Mar 2013, 6:53 pm

I watched the whole video (and I think there was an unnecessary amount of swearing)! I personally think this subject is fascinating.

I have one thing to say about the end of the video. How is the figure that represents humanity at the end so sure that humanity is growing up?

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