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V_for_Verbose
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06 Jun 2013, 11:11 am

Before I begin my beliefs, I'd like to state the status of my religious beliefs: I am a Christian by belief who is struggling with aspects of his faith. I am not an atheist, nor am I an agnostic.

That being said, I will commence with my analysis of Christianity and Autism:

I will try to sum up the main ideas of Christianity in a paraphrased fashion:

Genesis (Old Testament):

1. God created the Heavens, Earth, Universe, all animals, and the first two humans- Adam & Eve.

2. God told Adam and Eve they could eat from any tree, except the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil

3. Satan, in the form of a snake, tempts Eve to eat the fruit, she does, and so does Adam

4. God punishes Adam & Eve by banishing them from the Garden of Eden. Snakes will hate men and men with hate snakes,
women will have painful childbirth and will desire to serve their husbands, and all men will be mortal and have to work until
they die.

Old Testament

The Old Testament is basically the history of Israel, which is God's chosen people. The main theme of the Old Testament is this- Israel
turns away from God, starts worshiping other false gods and doing things God doesn't like, God punishes Israel, Israel gets back on the "right track", they start falling away from God again, rinse, cycle, and repeat.

Also, prophets, whom God speaks to, tell of the Messiah ("anointed one" in Hebrew, "Christ" in Greek), who will save His people and liberate them.

The New Testament

The New Testament is about Jesus, or God incarnate in human form, coming to Earth, teaching men how to live according to God's standard. He is the Messiah, for He has come to free men of their sins, and free them from the wrath of God that is upon humanity because of Adam & Eve's original screw-up.

He does this by sacrificing Himself on the Cross to pay for all of mankind's sins, to finally allow man to have good standing with God, since the price of sin has been paid by Jesus. He died, and rose again three days, and descended into Heaven.

The rest of the New Testament is the foundation of the first church, the presence of the Holy Spirit left by Jesus, and Paul's missionary work to the rest of the world to convert people to Christianity. And of course, there is Revelations at the end, but those events have yet to happen.

What does Christianity have to do with autism?

I believe Autism, diseases, physical limitations, and all other impairments go back to Original Sin, which is the punishment by God for Adam and Eve's screw up in the Garden of Eden. I've talked to devout Christians before, and their analysis is this- God doesn't create human beings, their parents do, HOWEVER He does allow things to happen- like diseases, disorders, physical limitations, etc, as a punishment for Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden.

The Irony of it all!

The irony of it all is this- some of us are paying for Adam and Eve's rebellion in the Garden of Eden more than others are! When you look at Genesis, the punishments are this- 1.) The snake will crawl on its belly for the rest of its life, and God will place hatred between the snake and the man, so that the snake will strike the man, and the man will try to kill it. 2.) Women will give painful childbirth and they will desire their husbands. 3.) All men will be mortal, and will work hard to live and support themselves, and will die and one day go to ash, as they originally came from ash.

Let's check and see what applies to ALL human beings:

1. We are ALL mortal, we WILL die someday (that's a fact!)
2. Women DO give painful childbirth, and most of them desire to please their
husbands (and their husbands should please them as well)
3. Most humans HATE snakes, and want to run away or kill one
when we see them.
4. Unless we come from wealthy families, we ALL have to work hard to
live and support ourselves


Autism, Bi-polar disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Schizophrenia, paraplegia, quadriplegia, Manic depression, psychopathy, Neurofibromatosis, leprosy, Cerebral Palsy, Multiple Sclerosis, Cleft Palates, Down's Syndrome, Mental Retardation, Dyslexia, Tourette's Syndrome, Type 1 Diabetes, Obesity caused by hormonal imbalances, blindness, deafness, mutism, Elephantiasis, cancer.

Only SOME of us deal with these things! Everyone else, besides the conditions I mentioned above (and perhaps others too), were created NORMALLY, without defect in their physical/mental design.

It begs the question- Why would God allow these people, who never said or did anything bad to Him in their creation, to be weaker than everyone else? Why does Joe get to be allowed to be created normally by God, and Tim is allowed to have a form of Schizophrenia? Why does Jane get to be allowed to be created normally, and Sarah is allowed to have Down's Syndrome?

It is almost random how some people get "lucky" and others don't. It makes me question God's fairness.

I don't know, what do you all think?



PsychoSarah
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06 Jun 2013, 11:14 am

I find viewing autism as a punishment as insulting.



zer0netgain
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06 Jun 2013, 12:11 pm

V_for_Verbose wrote:
Autism, Bi-polar disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Schizophrenia, paraplegia, quadriplegia, Manic depression, psychopathy, Neurofibromatosis, leprosy, Cerebral Palsy, Multiple Sclerosis, Cleft Palates, Down's Syndrome, Mental Retardation, Dyslexia, Tourette's Syndrome, Type 1 Diabetes, Obesity caused by hormonal imbalances, blindness, deafness, mutism, Elephantiasis, cancer.

Only SOME of us deal with these things! Everyone else, besides the conditions I mentioned above (and perhaps others too), were created NORMALLY, without defect in their physical/mental design.

It begs the question- Why would God allow these people, who never said or did anything bad to Him in their creation, to be weaker than everyone else? Why does Joe get to be allowed to be created normally by God, and Tim is allowed to have a form of Schizophrenia? Why does Jane get to be allowed to be created normally, and Sarah is allowed to have Down's Syndrome?


You proceed from a flawed premise.

In the Garden, Adam and Eve were preserved from any disease or disorder. They (supposedly) could have lived forever.

When they sinned, sickness and death entered the equation.

This is why some people get a raw deal from birth and others do not. Not because God is punishing those who have a shortcoming for something they or someone else did.

Indeed if God intervened and prevented such a thing from happening, it would only lend itself to prove a higher being was intervening in the world, making it impossible to not believe in God. It'd be the same as if God smote every person who sinned within 24 hours of their sin. Can't deny the pattern of bad people dropping dead right after they do the deed.



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06 Jun 2013, 12:41 pm

I too am a Christian struggling with certain aspects of faith. My struggles come from the idea that men and women are equal in dignity before God's eyes but different in our gifts--I don't seem to have the nurturing, empathetic talents that women are supposed to all have. I have also heard it said that our souls give us the social component somehow (can't remember exactly what they said--it was on a show I was captioning) and that we have a need to come together as a body and that being alone isn't healthy. That could very well be true for NT Catholics but it isn't so for me, I don't think. I should talk to a priest about this and see if I can't get a better understanding of Christian "communion" and autism. They seem contradictory on the surface but if the Church is universal, I have to fit somewhere. Either that or I was somehow born without a soul.


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06 Jun 2013, 12:46 pm

I dislike spiders and other crawlies much more than snakes. I don't hate any creatures, though. They're just doing what they do, trying to live their lives, just like me.



The_Walrus
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06 Jun 2013, 12:50 pm

The idea of original sin comes from St Augustine. He thought that all the suffering in the world comes because Original Sin perverted God's very good creation. It isn't a punishment imposed by God. Likewise poverty, or abuse, or disease. Augustine thought all humans were corrupted by Original Sin because of "seminal presence in the loins of Adam" i.e. all the sperm that ever existed were in Adam's testicles when he bit the fruit, which is impossible. This is why humans do bad things. Natural evil (which covers earthquakes, famines, and diseases) comes because "the ground is cursed" as a result of Original Sin (Genesis 2:17).

I think Augustine was wrong, and Original Sin doesn't exist. Instead, God either isn't as loving as He is traditionally held to be, or He isn't as knowledgeable and powerful as He is held to be, so he created an imperfect world and then didn't care or couldn't do anything to completely sort it out.

When do you think Adam and Eve lived?



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06 Jun 2013, 12:59 pm

I think the story of Adam and Eve is a parable.



Exploronaut
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06 Jun 2013, 1:50 pm

V_for_Verbose wrote:
Before I begin my beliefs, I'd like to state the status of my religious beliefs: I am a Christian by belief who is struggling with aspects of his faith. I am not an atheist, nor am I an agnostic.

That being said, I will commence with my analysis of Christianity and Autism:

I will try to sum up the main ideas of Christianity in a paraphrased fashion:

Genesis (Old Testament):

1. God created the Heavens, Earth, Universe, all animals, and the first two humans- Adam & Eve.

2. God told Adam and Eve they could eat from any tree, except the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil

3. Satan, in the form of a snake, tempts Eve to eat the fruit, she does, and so does Adam

4. God punishes Adam & Eve by banishing them from the Garden of Eden. Snakes will hate men and men with hate snakes,
women will have painful childbirth and will desire to serve their husbands, and all men will be mortal and have to work until
they die.

Old Testament

The Old Testament is basically the history of Israel, which is God's chosen people. The main theme of the Old Testament is this- Israel
turns away from God, starts worshiping other false gods and doing things God doesn't like, God punishes Israel, Israel gets back on the "right track", they start falling away from God again, rinse, cycle, and repeat.

Also, prophets, whom God speaks to, tell of the Messiah ("anointed one" in Hebrew, "Christ" in Greek), who will save His people and liberate them.

The New Testament

The New Testament is about Jesus, or God incarnate in human form, coming to Earth, teaching men how to live according to God's standard. He is the Messiah, for He has come to free men of their sins, and free them from the wrath of God that is upon humanity because of Adam & Eve's original screw-up.

He does this by sacrificing Himself on the Cross to pay for all of mankind's sins, to finally allow man to have good standing with God, since the price of sin has been paid by Jesus. He died, and rose again three days, and descended into Heaven.

The rest of the New Testament is the foundation of the first church, the presence of the Holy Spirit left by Jesus, and Paul's missionary work to the rest of the world to convert people to Christianity. And of course, there is Revelations at the end, but those events have yet to happen.

What does Christianity have to do with autism?

I believe Autism, diseases, physical limitations, and all other impairments go back to Original Sin, which is the punishment by God for Adam and Eve's screw up in the Garden of Eden. I've talked to devout Christians before, and their analysis is this- God doesn't create human beings, their parents do, HOWEVER He does allow things to happen- like diseases, disorders, physical limitations, etc, as a punishment for Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden.

The Irony of it all!

The irony of it all is this- some of us are paying for Adam and Eve's rebellion in the Garden of Eden more than others are! When you look at Genesis, the punishments are this- 1.) The snake will crawl on its belly for the rest of its life, and God will place hatred between the snake and the man, so that the snake will strike the man, and the man will try to kill it. 2.) Women will give painful childbirth and they will desire their husbands. 3.) All men will be mortal, and will work hard to live and support themselves, and will die and one day go to ash, as they originally came from ash.

Let's check and see what applies to ALL human beings:

1. We are ALL mortal, we WILL die someday (that's a fact!)
2. Women DO give painful childbirth, and most of them desire to please their
husbands (and their husbands should please them as well)
3. Most humans HATE snakes, and want to run away or kill one
when we see them.
4. Unless we come from wealthy families, we ALL have to work hard to
live and support ourselves


Autism, Bi-polar disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Schizophrenia, paraplegia, quadriplegia, Manic depression, psychopathy, Neurofibromatosis, leprosy, Cerebral Palsy, Multiple Sclerosis, Cleft Palates, Down's Syndrome, Mental Retardation, Dyslexia, Tourette's Syndrome, Type 1 Diabetes, Obesity caused by hormonal imbalances, blindness, deafness, mutism, Elephantiasis, cancer.

Only SOME of us deal with these things! Everyone else, besides the conditions I mentioned above (and perhaps others too), were created NORMALLY, without defect in their physical/mental design.

It begs the question- Why would God allow these people, who never said or did anything bad to Him in their creation, to be weaker than everyone else? Why does Joe get to be allowed to be created normally by God, and Tim is allowed to have a form of Schizophrenia? Why does Jane get to be allowed to be created normally, and Sarah is allowed to have Down's Syndrome?

It is almost random how some people get "lucky" and others don't. It makes me question God's fairness.

I don't know, what do you all think?

Autism can sometimes be hell. I have myself suffered so great emotional pain thet I wished that my life would end...
But it comes a lot of benefits with it to, which makes all the bad things worth it, which makes me grateful for not being a neurotypical.
And just imagine how boring it would be if it was no pain.

And when it comes to "God's fairness"...
Image
(It pains me to use something from such a bad movie, but i couldn't think of anything else) You take the Blue Pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe(aka don't look at the other things I am going to post).
You take the Red Pill, you stay in wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes(look at the things I am going to post, which you may not like at all).


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Last edited by Exploronaut on 07 Jun 2013, 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

Exploronaut
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06 Jun 2013, 2:11 pm

Here is the Red Pill...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAag8mgdexk[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJqw-idOwUc[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4T3hlneD-g[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_531438&feature=iv&src_vid=G4T3hlneD-g&v=78Fk8BwGR0I[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Fk8BwGR0I[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmQZ4f9f_Yw[/youtube]


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06 Jun 2013, 2:20 pm

V_for_Verbose wrote:
... what do you all think?

I think that basing your entire thesis on assumptions derived from a book of largely apocryphal stories that have been passed down from ignorant, illiterate nomads since the Early Bronze Age renders the entire thesis laughable, to say the least.



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06 Jun 2013, 2:33 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
I think the story of Adam and Eve is a parable.


Well, Adam and Eve were pairable.

ruveyn



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06 Jun 2013, 2:34 pm

ruveyn wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
I think the story of Adam and Eve is a parable.
Well, Adam and Eve were pairable. ruveyn

They gambled with a paradise and lost everything!



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06 Jun 2013, 2:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
I think the story of Adam and Eve is a parable.
Well, Adam and Eve were pairable. ruveyn

They gambled with a paradise and lost everything!


So did Eve. Do you know what she got? Snake-eyes.

ruveyn



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06 Jun 2013, 2:43 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
You proceed from a flawed premise.

In the Garden, Adam and Eve were preserved from any disease or disorder. They (supposedly) could have lived forever.

When they sinned, sickness and death entered the equation.

This is why some people get a raw deal from birth and others do not. Not because God is punishing those who have a shortcoming for something they or someone else did.

Indeed if God intervened and prevented such a thing from happening, it would only lend itself to prove a higher being was intervening in the world, making it impossible to not believe in God. It'd be the same as if God smote every person who sinned within 24 hours of their sin. Can't deny the pattern of bad people dropping dead right after they do the deed.

I agree, often people have this misconception that the vengeful god is just unfairly punishing those who have disabilities. The fact is yes they are a result of sin, no they are not punishments, ever since evil entered this world people have been getting slighted and wronged with none of the fault being on them. Not that any of us are blameless but our disabilities and issues are not god's way of judging or punishing us they are an unfortunate effect of evil.
Regardless, not all disabilities or dysfunctions are all bad, just look at the wonderful things autistic people have contributed to society! Even those with disorders or ailments which keep them from contributing to society in the traditional sense can be remarkable examples to the rest of us when it comes to learning how to persevere and perhaps even more amazing examples of how to love unconditionally.


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zer0netgain
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06 Jun 2013, 3:09 pm

As I am fond of saying....

I don't mind life being unfair...I just wish it was unfair more in my favor. :lol:



V_for_Verbose
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06 Jun 2013, 5:22 pm

zer0netgain wrote:

You proceed from a flawed premise.

In the Garden, Adam and Eve were preserved from any disease or disorder. They (supposedly) could have lived forever.

When they sinned, sickness and death entered the equation.

This is why some people get a raw deal from birth and others do not. Not because God is punishing those who have a shortcoming for something they or someone else did.

Indeed if God intervened and prevented such a thing from happening, it would only lend itself to prove a higher being was intervening in the world, making it impossible to not believe in God. It'd be the same as if God smote every person who sinned within 24 hours of their sin. Can't deny the pattern of bad people dropping dead right after they do the deed.


Yes, however, as you said "when they sinned, sickness and death entered the equation". When Adam and Eve first sinned in the Garden of Eden, they realized their nakedness and hid from God, for they had the knowledge of good and evil when they sinned. God knew what they did, asked them what they did, and they told Him.

He laid forth the punishment for their sins- Snakes and man would hate each other and try to kill each other, women would have painful childbirth and would live to serve their husbands, man would toil and labor to feed and provide for himself and that he would be mortal, and die and return to ash, as he was derived from ash.

They were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, out of paradise, and THAT is when death took place. But if you look at the Bible, and you look at all the main characters, you notice that these were "normal" everyday people, without psychological disorders or physical limitations. Jesus, David, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, Issac, Joshua, Abel, Cain, Eve, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Judas, Peter, Boaz, Samson, Paul- they were born "normally" without physical or mental defect. When you hear about people with mental/physical defects in the Bible, you hear about how Jesus healed the blind man, the lame man (paraplegic), the man possessed by demons, the child who was dead, Lazarus, etc.

The only reasonable conclusion one can come to is this- that our pain and suffering in this life is due to Original Sin (ancestral sin) that was the direct result of Adam and Eve's rejection of God in the Garden of Eden. It is explains why God allows people who did nothing to Him to have a "raw deal", because He allows it to happen.

As for your analogy, I'd say this- if everyone was given the same estate, without physical or mental limitations, I'm willing to bet that people would be more inclined to trust God and not doubt Him, because He made everyone else the same way. Atheists use this reason to justify their disbelief in God- "How can a loving God allow people to born with physical limitations, mental diseases, and other limitations? If He loves His children, He would not allow them to be hurt!" It is a logical argument to make. If you were a parent, you would do things to hurt your child or cause them to suffer. We apply the same logic to God.

As for punishing sinners within 24 hours of their sin, I would argue in that regard that God is kind enough to allow us free will to live our lives the way we see fit, or to choose His way, and after we die, He makes the final decision. In that regard, He is fair.