Wittgenstein, Nietzsche, and autism.

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Hi! I signed up here as I'm doing some research on Wittgenstein and Nietzsche, more specifically as philosophers who could help autistic people to cope and flourish. I have AS myself and find they are both very relevant to my problems. This insight led to me to enrol on a PhD on this topic, which I'll be doing for the next three years.

I have three informal questions:

Firstly, does anyone else find them relevant?

Secondly, would anyone be interested in this if I published it?

And thirdly, are there any other philosophers who you find particularly relevant?

Any comments, questions and thoughts are welcome!

How can Wittgenstein and Nietzsche help autistic people? They have been dead for a relatively long time.
Besides, philosophers are of no good to us. We need people with a real profession like neurologists for instance.

I'm too ignorant to be able to tell you if I think they're relevant or know of any that might be relevant, but I would be interested in this if you published it.

I think philosopher's ideas could be helpful in understanding one's condition and coping, despite not being from a scientific standpoint.

Thanks for the replies. I'm not going to explain my thesis here or give an introduction to philosophy. But its important to point out that science isn't everything. Science provides testable hypotheses that can help us understand the world. Philosophy and especially ethics have more to do with how to live. They are both relevant and important in different ways.

Well, people have theorized that both philosophers were autistic. Whether or not this is true of course is a matter of speculation, however I personally have found both philosophers extremely helpful in my way of thinking and I know other autistic people have also. This probably stems from the fact that Nietzsche was massively anti-social, valued contemplation and solitude and believed the isolation of the individual was necessary to break away from the herd mentality. Wittgenstein also liked the idea that language ought to be as clear and concise as possible and that we should do away with abstracts. This I'm sure is a point many autistic people could relate to. I'm sorry but i think your point about a 'real profession' is ludicrous. What defines a 'real profession anyway? Plus people are inclined to do what they are passionate about. Many people may not find such a profession as neuroscience interesting in anyway but instead prefer writing fiction or something which doesn't have much practical value. Also, although neuroscience and such practical professions are indeed useful, philosophy can help the paradigm in which such skills are used and how they are applied morally. One might say testing various medicines is a practical activity, yet the decision as to whether or not to test it on animals is a philosophical one, which is just as important. So I disagree. People would not bother reading them if they were no good. Peopl are obviously drawn to them for a particular reason. Some would say neurologists are in fact useless and that we need less advancement in the realm of science but more of a need for simpler things like human contemplation. As science progresses, it seems happiness is not increased because we lack the space to philosophize and contemplate our lives and our existence.

Exactly. To say that science is the only thing that defines a 'real' job in my opinion is ludicrous. Yes, some people may be happier and benefit from the progression of science but many people still yearn for contemplation and the discovery of why they are here and so forth? If philosophers held no purpose people would not turn to them, however they are now being read more than ever since as our society becomes more technologically advanced, we paradoxically yearn more simple, human pleasures.

Nietzsche sounds interesting. Anyone recommend an introductory book to his philosophy?

Thus Spoke Zarathusa is pretty heavy, but worthwhile. Otherwise, I'd go for a general introduction to philosophy that has a chapter on him, rather than an introductory book.

RonsPlanet: I guess you are talking about AS being a different but valid viewpoint or something along those lines? Wittgenstein said all subjective viewpoints are equally valid, and Nietzsche that we can't know that our view is good (obviously I am paraphrasing and don't know a much as you).

Interestingly, the philosopher who seems most autistic to me is Kant, who would have strongly disagreed with them.

Fair enough, that's your point of view, but you do not speak for all autistic people.

Reading his first book is a start, the birth of Tragedy, or there is a fantastic program on youtube called human all too human about Nietzsche's philosophy, which is quite good.

Just out of interest, why Kant?

Rigid thinking, never moved very far from his home, had a very strict routine, no romantic relationships (or strong friendships?)...

Yes, true, I think I have heard before somewhere that he liked going for walks and stuff at extremely precise times. Although I would not say his philosophy was extremely rigid. At the time he was writing there was a lot of rigid thinking between the rationalists and the empiricists. The rationalists believed that objective truth could be acquired through the use of deductive reasoning, while the empiricists believed that objective truth by sense-data through the human senses. Kant was synthesized these two, maybe through very rigid logic but it still showed some intellectual fluidity on his part I believe.

Nietzsche I would say showed certain autistic traits in his philosophy. I do not like saying such a thing however since many people with autism are very different and would disagree with such generalizations I am about to make but Nietzsche was not highly empathetic and struggled to grasp the notion of empathy. He believed compassion and pity to be notions that were only considered 'good' by the herd mentality since truly empowered individuals led their lives without abiding to such notions but focused on their own self-development and trying to maintain order in light of the chaos within themselves. Nietzsche however is a highly multidimensional writer and what I have uttered is only but one interpretation of his writings. Also, he was highly anti-social and would hardly speak to anybody. He had no relationships during his lifetime and would solely wish to seek solitude. He believed that while there was a herd mentality who were unquestioning and sought distraction from their internal selves, there was a higher sort of man who sough to ask questions of existence, being, suffering and of self and that solitude was necessary for such an individual to flourish.

In regards to Wittgenstein, it is high pre-occupation with language that makes me think he was slightly autistic. From what I know of him, he believes that language should form a pictorial representation of reality and that it should refer to physical objects that can be empirically verified. He accepts that mystical experiences may not be able to do this since they are defined by the fact that they go beyond the limits of man's linguistic capability, however he believed that the problems of philosophy ultimately arise from misunderstandings of language. The problems of god arise because people have various interpretations of what god represents and so forth and thus the problems thinkers concern themselves with could be solved by people coming to collective agreements regarding linguistic meaning. Sorry, I probably sound stupid but that is the way I see it.

IMO, good philosophical works to help autistic individuals to cope are:

- The Emotional Dog and Its Rational Tail by Jonathan Haidt
- On BS by Harry G. Frankfurt
- Thinking, Fast And Slow by Daniel Kahnemann

All three will provide good answers to one of the most frustrating questions many individuals on the spectrum face: Why do people in general behave so irrationally?

Oops... Only one of those are philosophers. Oh, well...

Wittgenstein, I could not answer for since I have read none of his works. However when it comes to Nietzsche I would have to refresh my memory considering his works. Has been some years since I have last read those. But I do not see an immediate connection with AS. Besides based on this forum most people on the spectrum seem to be more acting like the lambs in on of his stories then as the eagles.



Sure, it might provide some interresting read.



Never read on that mentioned AS, or related disorders specifically. But if I can think of any that have written about associated areas I will mention it here.



Their philosophical writings might cover ares that might correlate with what Autism-spectrum disorder effects.



Because?



How does one deviate between a real profession or a non-real profession, besides a job for one get paid and one for one does not get paid?

Last edited by Sigbold on 24 Dec 2013, 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Through the last 2 decades on devouring books on philosophy, psychology, sociology, anthropology, cultural studies, and history, this book helped me cope with and understand people far more than any other.