Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

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Are we talking about survival or having the element of choice. With the latter being able to choose what you eat, what you wear, what car you drive, etc. etc. It is my belief that the OP was talking about survival.

Just about everyone, irrespective of status, has their choices limited in some way. Shall I take a two week holiday in Florida or three weeks? Shall I buy a new BMW/Mercedes or a second-hand Ford. It's only a matter of degree. A few billionaires might have total freedom of choice, but even for them their time may be limited. Can't be in two places at once.

I am 71, born during WWII in the UK when food was rationed. A neighbour would go out early with two pet ferrets and return a few hours later with a gunny sack of dead rabbits. Often throwing a few rabbits over the back fence. When I was young a big pot of rabbit stew was an incredible luxury.

A local golf course is overrun with rabbits. If I was really hard up I wouldn't think twice about laying some snares around the back where no one goes. Just need a few lengths of piano wire. And I would NOT consider rabbit stew to be the ultimate degradation. Quite the opposite I would enjoy it whilst revelling in my own resourcefullness.

People have been feeding themselves from time immemorial, it's called survival. Being able to frequent the local Diner is not a necessity.

A lack of choice in that you get what you get. Choices between options is a luxury.

The poorer one is, the less choices are available. At a low enough point, there might be no choice available at all for even necessities (in other words, you can't choose what to eat or wear because there is NOTHING to choose from.)

I have never been so low that my very life was in danger. But in the past I have been in grave danger of losing a place to live or going without food for a time. I have been in a place where I would have had no transportation except for the incredible generosity of a couple I knew.

At a certain point, the lack of choices excludes a person from society because they cannot choose most of what is commonly chosen by people in the society. For example, lets talk about cable television or internet access at home That has become common today, though it really is a luxury. People living in poverty cannot choose that (and if they do, they are foolishly choosing it over necessities.) Not having cable television or internet access at home (by not having the choice to get it) excludes one from the society in many ways.

I have been in a situation where most of the people I knew were going out to eat after church, and we had to say no because we didn't have the money. We could not participate in the "culture" because of a lack of funds. That was a choice we didn't have. It was not "Hmmm, do we 'feel' like going out to eat or do we want to save money?" It was "we CANNOT go out to eat."

We drove old cars because we *had* to, not because we were being frugal and wise. (Although we still do that now in a choice to be frugal.) Same with shopping at thrift stores, making food from scratch, etc. Our lifestyle was dictated by lack of funds, not by choices on how to wisely (or unwisely) spend our money.

If this doesn't make sense, I don't know how else to explain it...

I'm sorry I don't have cable TV. Too expensive and it is far from necessity. At time I have used free internet access at my local library.

Food preparation is expensive if you allow someone else to do it for you. Basic raw vegetables, fruits and meats/fish are not expensive anywhere. What costs is paying others to prepare them. Some years ago a local farmer was offering for a few dollars access to his fields, where you could collect as much as you could in an hour for the entrance fee. Collecting meant digging up potatoes, carrots, onions, etc. He had a lot of takers as even digging up and preparing the food for market costs.

Every so often you see guys on the Box going fishing and then releasing their catch. I go fishing for the table. End of story. If it's legal and edible then when caught it's mine. Driving around Africa fresh road kill always went in the boot/trunk to be butchered later. Springbok spare ribs barbequed over an open fire made from dried camel-thorn branches was a truly magic meal.

IMHO people of the MacDonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut generation seem to have lost the ability or knowledge to provide for themselves. Which is terribly sad.

But YOU have a CHOICE to not have cable TV. I also do not have it, by CHOICE. It used to not be by CHOICE. It used to be that I didn't have the money for it. Now, I do have the money for it, but I don't want to spend my money that way.

It is cheaper to make one's own food. TRUE. I am of the generation you speak of, but I know how to COOK. Very well, in fact. However, it is NOT TRUE that basic food is inexpensive. It is LESS expensive than buying premade food. But, feeding a family of four easily costs at least $400 per month using BASIC ingredients and cooking everything from scratch. Housing for a family of 4 is easily $900+ a month. Add on electricity, heat, and gas/transportation costs and you're up to at least $1500 (likely a good bit more) for a family of 4. Never mind other incidental expenses, like renewing a license or something like that.

I lived on $1,400-$1,600 a month for 5 years to take care of my family. There's no wiggle room in that. There's no luxury or choice. I got only what I absolutely needed, and what was given to me. Occasionally, a trip to McDs, where the entire family split two extra value meals, was a respite because to not ever have a break from the stress of this can make someone go insane. Watching every single penny is exhausting.

Again, my life was not in danger (my mental health was, however), and I was never homeless. That would be much, much worse. People have been in much, much worse positions than I.

BTW, I even have goats and chickens, and grow my own vegetables (and I know how to can and process them.) Now, it allows us to live at a *lower* income level than we would otherwise need more than it is a *necessity.* But by no means am I speaking from the point of view of someone of my generation who's had everything handed to her. I didn't learn these things growing up. I taught them to myself.

(Some special interest "abilities" came into play, allowing me to be determined and obsessed about these skills until I mastered them and moved onto something else.)

Thankfully, I've never been poor. But I have walked a mile to catch a fish (smallmouth bass), walk back home, prepare, cook, and eat it for lunch.

My family's not poor although they're primarily solidly in the middle of the middle class. Of indistinct means... That said I've never been anywhere near the entry tax bracket in my life. On paper I'm dirt poor until my next employer stops pushing back my start date. I live somewhat comfortably though only because frugality is second nature to me. Upgrades & capabilities without expenses is where I learned many of my technological abilities. Device hackers save thousands year over year. I'm a DIY mechanic for the same reason. On top of that the only reason I live with all the trappings of a median American is being a ninja with Craigslist. I know what OP is saying about memorizing every price, everywhere.

Some people learn engineering with catering, accommodations and millions in equipment. I'm banking on blood/sweat/tears meaning more over time.

Poverty makes choice a luxury. This is something that those Limousine Liberals don't have the capacity to understand.

Sure, some have witnessed poverty first-hand, but that does not mean they've ever experienced it at all. Real poverty is much more than not knowing when you will eat again. Real poverty involves not knowing IF you will ever eat again, IF you will ever have a safe, secure and sheltered place to sleep; IF the blood you just coughed up means that you will be dead by morning; IF those black spots on your toes mean that you will lose your foot before spring; IF the people who once said they would love you forever would even answer their door if you came knocking; and IF it is really worth the effort to try to survive just one more day.

I remember a sorority sponsoring a day of fasting, where instead of buying three meals for each of their members for one day, they donated the cost of the 50 or so meals to the local homeless shelter and closed down their own kitchen for 24 hours. This was supposed to get their members more in touch with what it really means to go hungry. Most of the members did skip a meal or two, but all were found to have "cheated" at the local restaurants, pubs, and dormitories on and off campus at least once that day.

After the Northridge quake, about a dozen military members from a local base were "volunteered" to help with the relief efforts. When they arrived, they were handed stacks off forms to pass out to the victims of the quake. These victims needed food, clothing, shelter, and medical care, and responded with hostility to a bunch of soldiers passing out pieces of paper. The real Social Workers - the ones being paid to provide relief to the quake victims - were all sitting in air-conditioned tents and trailers, enjoying hot meals while waiting for the portable showers and toilets to get hooked up. The only times that they left their comfortable shelters was when a celebrity or a news crew would show up.

These all fit the loose definition of a "Linousine Liberal"...

That last sentence illustrates what is commonly called the "Liberal Privilege" - as long as wealthy celebrities publicly state their support for poor people, they will be excused for their obvious displays of wealth and lack of any substatiative contribution to alleviating poverty. Of course, these same people will disappear when any really needy people show up and press them for support and assistance ...

I would call this abject poverty.

Another problem is people who have digestive sensitivities or need a certain diet due to health issues to stay healthy...so fact of the matter is being poor can also mean not having the luxury of good health. Of course cooking food at home is cheaper than eating out....but many of the poor don't have a home or access to a kitchen most of the time. Sure one could get a can of beans and they actually make cans of stuff you light and it heats enough to cook a can of food...my dad had some of those to keep warm while camping when it started getting cold but of course the beans and canned flame costs money to. And of course beans isn't a sustainable diet, enough to not die of starvation though I suppose though.

In my life I'm more put off by what the people who exist in poverty are like. I was at a food pantry/homeless shelter thingie and being around these people who seemed so out of sorts was distressing. I have a hard enough time taking care of myself but thanks to the government I'm in my own place with subsistence income. It wasn't just that they probably had issues worse than me both mental and physical which perturbed there behavior, but the imagination I had at the state they must be in mentally.

That anguish of feeling trapped, haunted by the reality around you as your days pass unchanging with or without struggle. I suppose I'm just talking about my feelings, the few times I f****d up and got in real trouble I got energized by the problem and found a way out by necessity riding an adrenal high.

I'm grateful for my mental strength, for the luck I've had getting the things I need. Imagining that someone isn't as lucky and is just suffering is hard to deal with, which is why I think people struggle talking about poverty and bad feelings.

I knew a nurse before and she was concerned with competency, and I asked her if ever people died because someone just messed up. She said yeah. That kind of reality is hard to look at, but I think not accepting it and taking it head on is far worse.

How local was this farmer? Could you walk to his farm from your home or home base? Something I learned while without money (but neither supporting children nor on the street) was what a luxury mobility is. Cars-even beater cars-cost money, for gas if nothing else. Bus fare costs money (so I would walk anyplace that was <10 miles). A commonality of poor people the world over seems to be that they are rooted in place.

The good food exists and it is cheaper and healthier to get fresh ingredients and cook yourself. But first you must get the fresh ingrtedients. What good is the local farm if it is 20 miles away from you and not on a bus line? What good is the stream if it is similarly far and you don't have fishing gear?

Getting places where fresh food can be obtained also takes time. If you have no job, you have lots of time but no money to purchase the gear for getting and preparing fresh food, or thne transportation. If you have a job that pays minimum wage (as many do) you have a litle money but suddenly no time. It takes time to get to this great food- far more time than even preparing it. If a McDonalds is 2 blocks from where you work and the grocery store is 2 miles, you will opt for the McD because it takes 15 minutes as oposed to 2 hours- which would make you late for work. Traveling by bus is brutally slow. You have to budget not just the drive time but also the bus schedule both ways.

This is what the concept of urban food deserts is built around.

I've just got to say that this thread is causing my "injustice meter" to be registering so high as to not be readable.



I HATE that people suffer so!

You are correct that mobility is a luxury. For most of our marriage, my husband and I have shared one old car. Our cars have usually been 10+ years old with over 150,000 miles on them and we drove them until they wouldn't go anymore. Most of our cars had well over 200,000 miles on them before they died for good. We often did not have a choice about what car we had. Because we had no money, we had to take what was given to us. So, some of those cars didn't last very long...

Sharing one car meant a lot of juggling. I stayed home with the kids (long story, but it brings up another question regarding the cost of childcare and such) and I would have to pack the kids up in the car at 6AM in order to bring my husband to work if I wanted to have access to the car, and then we'd have to pack up in the car to go pick him up at the end of the day. We lived 45 minutes from the city where he worked. The nearest grocery store was 10 miles away, as well as the nearest library.

Not only is one watching the pennies and how they are spent, but one is also watching the minutes. Every single decision is calculated. It is so stressful to not have the freedom to just relax.

Libraries are great. But not when the policy of the library is that you can't renew over the phone and the library is 10 miles away and you don't have access to the car all the time.

It was a long, slow recovery, and I lost a lot of weight in the process.

I am poor and have lived poor most my life given how my parent's managed their money, its tough but that's the only way I know how to live. Worrying about money is oppressive, its a sickness that really sucks the joy out of life but from this anxiety I've developed pretty strong budgeting skills and am pretty good eating at least food I make for the most part. When I go to the store I have a pretty good idea what I am going to buy and how much I can spend so I have enough until the end of the month, it's not terribly hard and I make real effort to sniff out sales and load up.

I don't drive but my parents most my childhood would be buying those cheap used cars, they'd buy them and drive them until they couldn't anymore but if you can buy a car for <$1500 and get it to run for a few years then it's a pretty good buy. My dad has found some pretty nice cars despite buying used ones so cheap from individuals, sure beats a car payment.

I don't have cable or a smartphone, that's a real luxury. Internet is something worth investing money in, you can get most of your needs served out of it.

I keep things in perspective, where I live there are many homeless people and just folks that are a lot more messed up and less fortunate than me, I know I can survive to certain degree. I can't even imagine what life if is like in these poverty stricken third world countries, so while there is much wrong in our country and the world today we are still fortunate to be here in this and place.

The point isn't to poke holes in your premise it's to explain that it might not actually be a solution for some poor people. If you don't have tap water, a stove, counter space, a roof over your head, a refrigerator, any utensils or plates, any pots pans or bowls, you're probably not going to be making your own food. It's most likely cheapest to pay people to make it for you if you have to make a $30 dollar investment in an outdoor camping cooker or even $3 dollars for a lighter and $5 for a plate in order to make it yourself.

When Fnord says you don't understand poverty that's what he's talking about. You're method is a great solution for a certain type of poverty but it doesn't help when you're flat-out broke and homeless.