If serving on a jury and faced with an insanity plea,...

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beneficii
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07 Mar 2015, 8:31 pm

...remember that if you find the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant is likely to spend more time in a secure mental health facility (where they would receive treatment) with that verdict than they would in prison with that verdict. (And, seriously, someone who is severely mental ill to that point does not belong in a jail cell, but instead a secure mental health facility where they can receive treatment.)

More misconceptions about the insanity defense:

http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=1024


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07 Mar 2015, 8:52 pm

beneficii wrote:
...remember that if you find the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant is likely to spend more time in a secure mental health facility (where they would receive treatment) with that verdict than they would in prison with that verdict. (And, seriously, someone who is severely mental ill to that point does not belong in a jail cell, but instead a secure mental health facility where they can receive treatment.)

More misconceptions about the insanity defense:

http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=1024


Depends on the crime committed.
Having established guilt beyond reason of a doubt, if it's a particularly heinous crime where they'd actually spend decades behind bars (or get the death penalty) I'd say go with prison and not a mental health facility. Reason: Even if they are kukoo they can "get better" (i.e. fake it) and be back on the streets where they can do it again. I don't imagine it would be hard work for a highly intelligent psychopath to convince over-worked and under-paid psychiatric "professionals" and the court that they have been "cured" in plausible amount of time.


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Fnord
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07 Mar 2015, 10:52 pm

Insanity should not be a "Get Out of Jail Free Card". It seems to me that the 'insanity' defense is merely a ploy to avoid capital punishment when the defendant is obviously guilty of a capital crime, so I would go straight for the guilty verdict instead.


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08 Mar 2015, 12:22 am

Just because they aren't found not guilty by insanity doesn't mean they receive no treatment, you can still be insane and guilty. I think its something that is should be judged on a case by case basis, obviously it really depends on what the crime is and the extent of their illness.



eric76
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08 Mar 2015, 12:28 am

Those who go for insanity defenses thinking it will be easier are often not happy with the results. Something that might get them five years in prison could easily turn into 20 or 30 in a mental health facility.

Different states have different rules. Some people were complaining about Holmes, the shooter in the Aurora, Colorado movie theater, possibly going to a mental institution instead of prison. I tried to explain to them that in Colorado, that would likely be a life sentence because under the law in Colorado, he could not be released from the mental institution without the approval of a judge (and I think a court hearing) no matter how sure the doctors were that he was cured. And it is not likely that any judge would ever approve his release.

There was one discussion of some guy in prison for something like three years for some relatively minor charge. He thought that a mental institution looked like much easier time and managed to fake a mental illness well enough to get transferred to a mental institution. When his three years were up, it made no difference at all. He's been there something like 15 years even though there is nothing wrong with him and there is no end in sight.

So, yeah, on tv they make mental institutions seem like the easy way out. They aren't. Anyone who wants to be transferred to a mental institution is truly nuts.



eric76
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08 Mar 2015, 12:30 am

By the way, I think that in Texas, you have to have demonstrable, physical brain damage to be able to seek an insanity defense. If you were born mentally ill, I think it is very unlikely that you could be found not guilty by reason of insanity.



beneficii
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08 Mar 2015, 3:17 am

beneficii wrote:
...remember that if you find the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant is likely to spend more time in a secure mental health facility (where they would receive treatment) with that verdict than they would in prison with a guilty verdict. (And, seriously, someone who is severely mental ill to that point does not belong in a jail cell, but instead a secure mental health facility where they can receive treatment.)

More misconceptions about the insanity defense:

http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=1024


Fixed error in post (the bold).


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beneficii
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08 Mar 2015, 3:18 am

eric76 wrote:
By the way, I think that in Texas, you have to have demonstrable, physical brain damage to be able to seek an insanity defense. If you were born mentally ill, I think it is very unlikely that you could be found not guilty by reason of insanity.


The standard is either not understanding what you're doing or that you can't tell right from wrong.


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beneficii
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08 Mar 2015, 3:19 am

eric76 wrote:
Those who go for insanity defenses thinking it will be easier are often not happy with the results. Something that might get them five years in prison could easily turn into 20 or 30 in a mental health facility.

Different states have different rules. Some people were complaining about Holmes, the shooter in the Aurora, Colorado movie theater, possibly going to a mental institution instead of prison. I tried to explain to them that in Colorado, that would likely be a life sentence because under the law in Colorado, he could not be released from the mental institution without the approval of a judge (and I think a court hearing) no matter how sure the doctors were that he was cured. And it is not likely that any judge would ever approve his release.

There was one discussion of some guy in prison for something like three years for some relatively minor charge. He thought that a mental institution looked like much easier time and managed to fake a mental illness well enough to get transferred to a mental institution. When his three years were up, it made no difference at all. He's been there something like 15 years even though there is nothing wrong with him and there is no end in sight.

So, yeah, on tv they make mental institutions seem like the easy way out. They aren't. Anyone who wants to be transferred to a mental institution is truly nuts.


Exactly.


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beneficii
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08 Mar 2015, 3:28 am

Fnord wrote:
Insanity should not be a "Get Out of Jail Free Card". It seems to me that the 'insanity' defense is merely a ploy to avoid capital punishment when the defendant is obviously guilty of a capital crime, so I would go straight for the guilty verdict instead.


Even where the person was insane and did not fully understand what they were actually doing? I'd say there's a bit of bloodlust showing in your post.

I'd say for cases of insanity, treatment in a secure mental health facility, possibly for life, is the answer. Reserve capital punishment for the people who really knew what they were doing, but still murdered in a cold and calculated manner anyway.


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08 Mar 2015, 3:42 am

Murder isn't a crime you should be able to walk away from and be able to raise a family of your own afterwards, its about justice at that point. You can be guilty and still insane, that doesn't mean that you don't receive treatment. There is a reason why these laws changed, my family can personally attest to this. For some at one time, this was a 'get out of jail free card'.



beneficii
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08 Mar 2015, 4:51 am

Jacoby wrote:
Murder isn't a crime you should be able to walk away from and be able to raise a family of your own afterwards, its about justice at that point. You can be guilty and still insane, that doesn't mean that you don't receive treatment. There is a reason why these laws changed, my family can personally attest to this. For some at one time, this was a 'get out of jail free card'.


I don't think an insane person belongs in a jail cell, in the prison culture, and they sure as hell should NOT be put in long-term isolation to resolve the problems of being in the general prison population (which would only exacerbate their illness). They need to be receiving treatment at a secure mental health facility. Putting them in jail is punishing them for a crime they are not responsible for, while putting them in a secure mental health facility both protects the public and allows the person to receive the treatment they need, while also not punishing the person.


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08 Mar 2015, 5:17 am

Jared Loughner(the man who attempted to kill Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and killed 6 others) is currently being held at the United States Medical Center for Federal Prisoners serving life without the possibility of parole, do you think that is an appropriate place and sentence for him? There are very very few people that truly do not know what they are doing when they kill another person and even those people should also never be allowed the possibility of freedom in my opinion, just because they are ill does not mean they should have their hand held and told that they did nothing wrong. Their treatment is to make them not a threat to themselves or others and to make the competent to stand trial for their actions.

I can feel sympathy for those that fall thru the cracks of our mental health system and cannot get their help they need on the outside and far to many of this countries mentally ill find themselves behind bars in this country but when it comes to murder or rape or some especially heinous violent or sexual crime then justice must be served for the sake of the victim. I'm not sure what can be done to change this as this is largely a result of deinstitutionalization which is good and moral for some but has also left others out in the cold without the support they need, would you like to see that rolled back or what?



beneficii
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08 Mar 2015, 5:51 am

Jacoby wrote:
...but when it comes to murder or rape or some especially heinous violent or sexual crime then justice must be served for the sake of the victim.


Is it serving justice to punish someone who did not understand the reality of what they were doing? To me, it's more like thoughtless vengeance, a desire to see somebody punished ASAP. This is the same sort of crap that back in the 80s and 90s led to many people, especially black men, to being pressured and even tortured for days on end without a break to give a false confession to committing a heinous crime which would then be used against them in court, which only in the past decade or so has finally been getting attention thanks to the Innocence Project, which has released many innocent people. In their rush to see somebody punished, they forgot to check to make sure he was the guy who actually did it, sending an innocent man to prison, blamed for crimes he did not commit; the guy who actually did it, therefore, was free to commit more crimes and basically walked. Vengeance, but not justice, was served.

We should carefully distinguish justice and vengeance.


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08 Mar 2015, 7:03 am

beneficii wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Insanity should not be a "Get Out of Jail Free Card". It seems to me that the 'insanity' defense is merely a ploy to avoid capital punishment when the defendant is obviously guilty of a capital crime, so I would go straight for the guilty verdict instead.
Even where the person was insane and did not fully understand what they were actually doing? I'd say there's a bit of bloodlust showing in your post.
Monsters like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev serve no good to society, sane or not. Even his own defense lawyers admit that he's guilty.

The appeals process should keep him alive for a few more years, anyway.


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beneficii
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08 Mar 2015, 7:14 am

Fnord wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Insanity should not be a "Get Out of Jail Free Card". It seems to me that the 'insanity' defense is merely a ploy to avoid capital punishment when the defendant is obviously guilty of a capital crime, so I would go straight for the guilty verdict instead.
Even where the person was insane and did not fully understand what they were actually doing? I'd say there's a bit of bloodlust showing in your post.
Monsters like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev serve no good to society, sane or not. Even his own defense lawyers admit that he's guilty.

The appeals process should keep him alive for a few more years, anyway.


Was Tsarnaev insane?


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