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pawelk1986
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31 Mar 2015, 4:45 am

I once watched a program about Nazi war crimes. You could say that the Germans hold the Guinness world record in the field of barbarism:-)

In progarmie this talk of war crime SS France, SS soldiers reportedly closed the people from one village in the building of the church and set on fire, but I read recently that the armies of Napoleon also resorted to this kind of barbaric methods.

And recently I read that the English army during the American War of Independence, also in this way intimidated colonists who supported independence, moreover, shows that even in a movie.



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31 Mar 2015, 6:51 am

"The Patriot", starring Mel Gibson, is a BS Hollywood fable ( not a documentary) that has nothing to do with any historic reality.

It pumps up the British redcoats into being as bad as the Nazis so that the dumber folks in the audience can keep it straight who the villian in the movie is supposed to be. Not accurate at all.

In fact in the southern colonies during the Revolutionary war you were probably better off in redcoat controlled areas because there would be more law and order than it patriot controlled areas.

Not to say that the British Empire doesnt have things to answer for ( ask the Asian Indians, and the Irish). But in the American Revolution that werent that bad.

There are other movies that depict real barbarism of previous centuries quite graphically that ARE accurate. Havent seen it, but I have heard that "Soldier of Orange" (about the English civil war of the 1600's) is quite strong medicine to take in, but is accurate.



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31 Mar 2015, 1:32 pm

[quote="pawelk1986"]I once watched a program about Nazi war crimes. You could say that the Germans hold the Guinness world record in the field of barbarism:-)

I used to think this until I dug a little deeper baring in mind it is the victors version of history that gets the most attention.

You might not wish to Google something like Polish war crimes against the Prussians as everybody likes to think they are the good people and everybody else is evil.
You might discover that the greatest number of complaints of ethnic cleansing to The League of Nations in its history was from West Prussia regarding the treatment it was getting from Poland after coming under Polish jurisdiction following the Treaty of Versailles, my own family was fortunate enough to be able to flee the persecutions and murders by the Polish though they lost their estate. All of this was long before Hitler came to power.

Worst horrors though where to be experienced by the East Prussians at Polish hands during the close of the Second World War, I have just read an account in a book describing Poles sawing off the breasts of teenage and pre-teen land-farm girls by a Brazilian observer.
Did you know that after the war had ended, Poles would stop trains and any Jews found would be taken off and shot?
I read an account of one poor German Jew who after having suffered a German concentration camp found himself in camps run by the Polish, his words were that he would rather spend 10 years in Auschwitz than 1 day in this Polish camp, such were the ways the Polish were torturing their captives.

I have many books on this period of history, I would state for sheer nightmare horror that you wouldn't think humans capable of the worst offenders were the Russians, followed by the Czechs, followed by the Polish.

Can you imagine what it must feel like for naked Women to be tied between tanks that were driven apart?



pawelk1986
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31 Mar 2015, 2:20 pm

Nambo wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
I once watched a program about Nazi war crimes. You could say that the Germans hold the Guinness world record in the field of barbarism:-)

I used to think this until I dug a little deeper baring in mind it is the victors version of history that gets the most attention.

You might not wish to Google something like Polish war crimes against the Prussians as everybody likes to think they are the good people and everybody else is evil.
You might discover that the greatest number of complaints of ethnic cleansing to The League of Nations in its history was from West Prussia regarding the treatment it was getting from Poland after coming under Polish jurisdiction following the Treaty of Versailles, my own family was fortunate enough to be able to flee the persecutions and murders by the Polish though they lost their estate. All of this was long before Hitler came to power.

Worst horrors though where to be experienced by the East Prussians at Polish hands during the close of the Second World War, I have just read an account in a book describing Poles sawing off the breasts of teenage and pre-teen land-farm girls by a Brazilian observer.
Did you know that after the war had ended, Poles would stop trains and any Jews found would be taken off and shot?
I read an account of one poor German Jew who after having suffered a German concentration camp found himself in camps run by the Polish, his words were that he would rather spend 10 years in Auschwitz than 1 day in this Polish camp, such were the ways the Polish were torturing their captives.

I have many books on this period of history, I would state for sheer nightmare horror that you wouldn't think humans capable of the worst offenders were the Russians, followed by the Czechs, followed by the Polish.

Can you imagine what it must feel like for naked Women to be tied between tanks that were driven apart?


Do not overdo it, the Prussians were neither saints, after the third partition of Poland and Polish erased from the map of the world in 1795, Prussia, Russia and Austria have done everything they can to destroy Polish culture.

So when Germany lost utterly World War I and the Russian Empire was plunged into the chaos of civil war, Poland has used this chance to regain independence.

Unfortunately, not everyone was happy with it, I mean Russified or Germanized of Poles who feel more Germans or Russians such "Poles" had to be convinced that it is worth to be a Pole with the bayonet (This of course was a joke :D )



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31 Mar 2015, 3:28 pm

Germans on trial at Numerberg openly stated that the Allies were two faced and had no right to punish them for ethnic cleansing, since the Allies killed more people during their ethnic cleansing of North America, South America, Africa, Asia and Australia.

Well they were right, the British Empire killed millions through out righting military actions, purposely using chemical and biological weapons, and purposely deporting millions to other areas (including lots of non British white people) to maintain their empire.

The British in North America purposely distributed small pox and TB infected items to the Native Americans in hopes of wiping them out which would make it easier to take French territories (the Native Americans had an alliance with France, who had no intent populating North America).
Millions of Native Americans were wiped out because of it.

The British also deported over a million people who lived in French Canada when the acquired French Canada.
The people were deported because the British feared they wouldn't be loyal to them, the deportees were sent to French Louisiana.
The British seized their assets and money, though...

The British in Africa used the same tactics they used on the Native Americans, while enslaving the Africans.
Millions died in British Africa because they were Black.

The British in India wasn't as cruel, but still deplorable in the beginning.

The British did do quite awful things in their attempt to take China.
The British did everything they could feasible use on the Chinese in order to destroy the imperial Chinese government.
They also took huge parts of Chinese lands and burnt numerous Chinese cities to the ground including the imperial capital.
Over a million Chinese died at the hands of the British.

---

The French were best ones, but still killed quite a few people in Africa.
France had no intent of governing their North American territories, they just wanted to trade with the Native Americans.
France was als kind to SE Asia as well.

---

Spain... The Spanish literally intended to depopulate and enslave all the Native Americans in Central and South America.
They actively spread deadly diseases while regularly launching military campaigns to wipe them out.
It is believed that South America had a population that rivaled Europe in the 1500s, by 1600 almost 30% of South America's population had been killed by the Spanish, almost half were gone by the 1700s, and it leveled there.

---

The U.S. actively picked up where the British left off in dealing with the Native Americans.
The U.S. regularly killed the Native Americans because they were considered blood thirsty savages.
The Native Americans were transported by foot from their homelands in the Eastern U.S. to desolate land in the West U.S., despite a U.S. Supreme Court order blocking the government order to remove them. President Jackson said the Supreme Court didn't have the men to stop him.
The U.S. government regularly invaded the reservations to kill the Native Americans to prevent their numbers from rebounding.
By 1900, there was considerable less than 1 million Native Americans left in the U.S.
Through the 1970s, all Native American children were taken by force and sent to U.S. government boarding schools to Americanize and Christianize the Native Americans.
The children were physically punished for practicing their culture, religion and language.
The children were taught to speak english, taught to be good christians and to be good Americans.

It was also crime until recently for the Native Americans to speak their own language.

The Native Americans are still governed officially by the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs under the Dept. of the Interior.
They are only allowed to have the food and supplies given to them by the U.S. government to this date.

I won't even mention what the U.S. did to the Philippines in an attempt to Americanize and christianize

---

The Spanish were the worst in all of history, followed by the British and the U.S, leaving the Nazi in the dust.


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pawelk1986
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31 Mar 2015, 4:35 pm

xenocity wrote:

The French were best ones, but still killed quite a few people in Africa.
France had no intent of governing their North American territories, they just wanted to trade with the Native Americans.
France was als kind to SE Asia as well.

---


I heard that France was not as bad as other colonial powers, although I do not know what would it say the Algerians and Vietnamese :lol:
But France put emphasis on assimilation rather than colonization of their overseas dependencies.



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01 Apr 2015, 10:12 am

pawelk1986 wrote:
Do not overdo it, the Prussians were neither saints, after the third partition of Poland and Polish erased from the map of the world in 1795, Prussia, Russia and Austria have done everything they can to destroy Polish culture.

So when Germany lost utterly World War I and the Russian Empire was plunged into the chaos of civil war, Poland has used this chance to regain independence.

Unfortunately, not everyone was happy with it, I mean Russified or Germanized of Poles who feel more Germans or Russians such "Poles" had to be convinced that it is worth to be a Pole with the bayonet (This of course was a joke :D )


The bad deeds of the "Prussians" in past history can generally be laid at the feet of the Teutonic Knights rather than the common Prussian who himself was so badly treated by the Teutonic Knights that they actually asked the King of Poland to defeat the Teutonic Knights and pledged loyalty to the Polish King.

Unfortunately your last sentence wasnt a joke in reality, the Polish aristocracy in days gone by was even harsher than British aristocracy to its pheasant classes, the Prussians actually treated the Polish pheasants better than they were treated in their own country, hence many of them moved to Prussia and did indeed become Germanised, I think my Prussian Grandmother was of Polish stock, however, when the Polish cleaned West Prussia of anything German, this included Germanised Polish.
These Germanised Poles who had to flee to Germany were then viewed by the Germans as Polish.

Back to the subject, I think the "Red Terror" of Communist Russia that killed tens of millions in horrible ways will be a hard atrocity to beat.



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01 Apr 2015, 10:29 pm

I think we can admit that all nations and tribes have at one time or another had done unforgivable things, and at other times have had unforgivable things done to them.


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01 Apr 2015, 10:52 pm

Any time you hear about a war, but not about war crimes connected to said war, it means that they are being covered up or otherwise not reported. To this day, many Soviet and CIA archives are not available to the public.



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01 Apr 2015, 11:26 pm

staremaster wrote:
Any time you hear about a war, but not about war crimes connected to said war, it means that they are being covered up or otherwise not reported. To this day, many Soviet and CIA archives are not available to the public.


Yes!

I'd also like to add that the very term "war crime" is redundant. It implies that the crime is not war itself, but some highlighted actions within war that are deplorable enough to warrant arrest, in an otherwise acceptable situation. It implies that there is a right way to go about war - a right way to go about mass murder, environmental destruction, theft of resources from the people by the military, etc.


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01 Apr 2015, 11:57 pm

Nambo wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
Do not overdo it, the Prussians were neither saints, after the third partition of Poland and Polish erased from the map of the world in 1795, Prussia, Russia and Austria have done everything they can to destroy Polish culture.

So when Germany lost utterly World War I and the Russian Empire was plunged into the chaos of civil war, Poland has used this chance to regain independence.

Unfortunately, not everyone was happy with it, I mean Russified or Germanized of Poles who feel more Germans or Russians such "Poles" had to be convinced that it is worth to be a Pole with the bayonet (This of course was a joke :D )


The bad deeds of the "Prussians" in past history can generally be laid at the feet of the Teutonic Knights rather than the common Prussian who himself was so badly treated by the Teutonic Knights that they actually asked the King of Poland to defeat the Teutonic Knights and pledged loyalty to the Polish King.

Unfortunately your last sentence wasnt a joke in reality, the Polish aristocracy in days gone by was even harsher than British aristocracy to its pheasant classes, the Prussians actually treated the Polish pheasants better than they were treated in their own country, hence many of them moved to Prussia and did indeed become Germanised, I think my Prussian Grandmother was of Polish stock, however, when the Polish cleaned West Prussia of anything German, this included Germanised Polish.
These Germanised Poles who had to flee to Germany were then viewed by the Germans as Polish.

Back to the subject, I think the "Red Terror" of Communist Russia that killed tens of millions in horrible ways will be a hard atrocity to beat.


Please drop the 'h' in peasant, as it is not in that word. Pheasant refers to a type of edible bird.


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pawelk1986
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02 Apr 2015, 4:15 pm

Nambo wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
Do not overdo it, the Prussians were neither saints, after the third partition of Poland and Polish erased from the map of the world in 1795, Prussia, Russia and Austria have done everything they can to destroy Polish culture.

So when Germany lost utterly World War I and the Russian Empire was plunged into the chaos of civil war, Poland has used this chance to regain independence.

Unfortunately, not everyone was happy with it, I mean Russified or Germanized of Poles who feel more Germans or Russians such "Poles" had to be convinced that it is worth to be a Pole with the bayonet (This of course was a joke :D )


The bad deeds of the "Prussians" in past history can generally be laid at the feet of the Teutonic Knights rather than the common Prussian who himself was so badly treated by the Teutonic Knights that they actually asked the King of Poland to defeat the Teutonic Knights and pledged loyalty to the Polish King.

Unfortunately your last sentence wasnt a joke in reality, the Polish aristocracy in days gone by was even harsher than British aristocracy to its pheasant classes, the Prussians actually treated the Polish pheasants better than they were treated in their own country, hence many of them moved to Prussia and did indeed become Germanised, I think my Prussian Grandmother was of Polish stock, however, when the Polish cleaned West Prussia of anything German, this included Germanised Polish.
These Germanised Poles who had to flee to Germany were then viewed by the Germans as Polish.

Back to the subject, I think the "Red Terror" of Communist Russia that killed tens of millions in horrible ways will be a hard atrocity to beat.


I'm sorry if this joke offended you, as a "red terror" you're right, the Bolsheviks murdered ethnic minorities in Russia.
I remember that the Germans had at one time even has its own autonomous republic within the Soviet Union, its population consisted largely of the descendants of the Prussians who had settled in Russia at the invitation of Catherine who was also a Prussian origin.

But Stalin murdered most of the ethnic minorities in Russia



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02 Apr 2015, 6:01 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
Nambo wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
Do not overdo it, the Prussians were neither saints, after the third partition of Poland and Polish erased from the map of the world in 1795, Prussia, Russia and Austria have done everything they can to destroy Polish culture.

So when Germany lost utterly World War I and the Russian Empire was plunged into the chaos of civil war, Poland has used this chance to regain independence.

Unfortunately, not everyone was happy with it, I mean Russified or Germanized of Poles who feel more Germans or Russians such "Poles" had to be convinced that it is worth to be a Pole with the bayonet (This of course was a joke :D )


The bad deeds of the "Prussians" in past history can generally be laid at the feet of the Teutonic Knights rather than the common Prussian who himself was so badly treated by the Teutonic Knights that they actually asked the King of Poland to defeat the Teutonic Knights and pledged loyalty to the Polish King.

Unfortunately your last sentence wasnt a joke in reality, the Polish aristocracy in days gone by was even harsher than British aristocracy to its pheasant classes, the Prussians actually treated the Polish pheasants better than they were treated in their own country, hence many of them moved to Prussia and did indeed become Germanised, I think my Prussian Grandmother was of Polish stock, however, when the Polish cleaned West Prussia of anything German, this included Germanised Polish.
These Germanised Poles who had to flee to Germany were then viewed by the Germans as Polish.

Back to the subject, I think the "Red Terror" of Communist Russia that killed tens of millions in horrible ways will be a hard atrocity to beat.


I'm sorry if this joke offended you, as a "red terror" you're right, the Bolsheviks murdered ethnic minorities in Russia.
I remember that the Germans had at one time even has its own autonomous republic within the Soviet Union, its population consisted largely of the descendants of the Prussians who had settled in Russia at the invitation of Catherine who was also a Prussian origin.

But Stalin murdered most of the ethnic minorities in Russia


Those would have been the Volga Germans. But while there were some Prussians among them, most were Hessians.
My own people on my dad's side had been known as Black Sea Germans, who had lived in and around the Crimea and the Black Sea region. Most of them were from the northern regions of what is today Baden-Wurttemberg, as well as south eastern Rhineland Palatinate, and northernmost Alsace (which actually belongs to France) - most of the settlers were speakers of the high Franconian or Frankish dialect, which has common origins with the middle Franconian dialect of Hesse. So in other words, most Russian Germans were very much the same tribal/dialect group.


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03 Apr 2015, 4:53 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
Nambo wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
Do not overdo it, the Prussians were neither saints, after the third partition of Poland and Polish erased from the map of the world in 1795, Prussia, Russia and Austria have done everything they can to destroy Polish culture.

So when Germany lost utterly World War I and the Russian Empire was plunged into the chaos of civil war, Poland has used this chance to regain independence.

Unfortunately, not everyone was happy with it, I mean Russified or Germanized of Poles who feel more Germans or Russians such "Poles" had to be convinced that it is worth to be a Pole with the bayonet (This of course was a joke :D )


The bad deeds of the "Prussians" in past history can generally be laid at the feet of the Teutonic Knights rather than the common Prussian who himself was so badly treated by the Teutonic Knights that they actually asked the King of Poland to defeat the Teutonic Knights and pledged loyalty to the Polish King.

Unfortunately your last sentence wasnt a joke in reality, the Polish aristocracy in days gone by was even harsher than British aristocracy to its pheasant classes, the Prussians actually treated the Polish pheasants better than they were treated in their own country, hence many of them moved to Prussia and did indeed become Germanised, I think my Prussian Grandmother was of Polish stock, however, when the Polish cleaned West Prussia of anything German, this included Germanised Polish.
These Germanised Poles who had to flee to Germany were then viewed by the Germans as Polish.

Back to the subject, I think the "Red Terror" of Communist Russia that killed tens of millions in horrible ways will be a hard atrocity to beat.


I'm sorry if this joke offended you, as a "red terror" you're right, the Bolsheviks murdered ethnic minorities in Russia.
I remember that the Germans had at one time even has its own autonomous republic within the Soviet Union, its population consisted largely of the descendants of the Prussians who had settled in Russia at the invitation of Catherine who was also a Prussian origin.

But Stalin murdered most of the ethnic minorities in Russia


Goodness no Pawelk, your joke didn't offend me, I just though maybe you didn't realise that there was some sad truth in your joke.

The Red Terror http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror didn't just murder ethnic minorities, it murdered everything, Christians, White Russians and everyone above the very lowest of classes. This is one of the reasons Germany and Hitler were so terrified of it and wanted to destroy it, having come so close to being a victim from the likes of Rosa Luxemburg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg.
After starting a war that killed 65 million people Churchill then went on to say, "We have slaughtered the wrong pig" then referring to communist Russia.
And of course you know of the Katyn massacre were the communists imposed their culling of the upper classes in their latest country of conquest and don't you ever wonder why Churchill never declared war on Russia for invading Poland, even became their Ally.



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03 Apr 2015, 10:24 pm

"History is written by the victors."

The victors always remind us of the crimes of the defeated, while always covering up their own crimes.



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03 Apr 2015, 11:48 pm

We did not learn about this in our American History classes even though it received extensive coverage in the American media while it was happening.
Wikipedia - American mutilation of Japanese war dead


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