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LIFE; What is it?

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DentArthurDent
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30 May 2015, 12:34 am

Oldavid wrote:
Anyhow, there is still no evidence that life is, or could be, the spontaneous action of some random chemicals.


Wrong. There is plenty of evidence that life could arise from a gradual process of ever increasing chemical and mineral complexity.


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Oldavid
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30 May 2015, 5:45 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Anyhow, there is still no evidence that life is, or could be, the spontaneous action of some random chemicals.


Wrong. There is plenty of evidence that life could arise from a gradual process of ever increasing chemical and mineral complexity.
Assertions are not evidence... no matter who makes the assertions. Evidence will stand up to scrutiny.



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30 May 2015, 9:41 am

Oldavid wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Janissy wrote:
They have genetic material and they attach to cells and inject that genetic material. That this injection happens mechanically rather than through any actual action on their part just adds to the confusion.
If that were so then it automatically demands that viruses are preceded by other irreducibly complex organisms that they can parasitise.

Not irreducibly complex (nothing in Biology is irreducibly complex), but yes, it seems likely that cell-like protobionts formed before the precursors to viruses.
If you think about it carefully, all biology is irreducibly complex to a degree. Remove just one of life's necessities and your life is dead.


That's simple. That's because Biology

is the science of life and not life itself.

Biology only measures stuff that can be

reduced with a scientific method

by way of material reductionism.

Not all of life can be reduced to that;

by the scientific method to consistently
observable and measurable phenomenon;

And OMG; that's just common sense, as science doesn't
even have the full process of why folks get depressed 'figured out'.

To me it is simple;
Depression is a sign
of 'sick' ways of living;

A 'sign' from the God of Nature.

Anyone who doesn't feel good; most anyone;
is simply not living by the laws of the All Natural GOD;

And honestly; that's why most folks come to the Wrong Planet;

as they are simply lost from the rules of the God of Nature; and
caught
in the
illusions
of a society
gone truly mad,
in many sitting still,
non-flesh and blood,
connecting to each
other, ways

of
life.

Planets can not 'survive',
if they do not constantly
move and humans
suffer for
the lack
of that.

It's as simple as any
social animal foraging
for existence. To move
is to live; to sit still
is to
die;
same stuff;
different
ways of
screwing
up...;)


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30 May 2015, 9:55 pm

That life exists in all its complexity is a cold, hard objective fact that can be known with certainty by observation and experiment. Just what it is is beyond empirical science because it is a metaphysical thing... and it is certainly not just an agglomeration of atoms and chemicals, as can be seen where a dead thing may contain exactly the same chemicals and atoms as the previously live thing. You cannot make a dead thing live by just shifting it around (movement).

Why people get depressed is not a matter for empirical science, as you infer, and it is not something that can be "fixed" by physical displacement (movement).

I'm jolly glad that the people who make aeroplanes have a much more objective approach to physical reality than you do, 'Ghogsy.



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30 May 2015, 10:19 pm

Oldavid wrote:
That life exists in all its complexity is a cold, hard objective fact that can be known with certainty by observation and experiment. Just what it is is beyond empirical science because it is a metaphysical thing... and it is certainly not just an agglomeration of atoms and chemicals, as can be seen where a dead thing may contain exactly the same chemicals and atoms as the previously live thing. You cannot make a dead thing live by just shifting it around (movement).

Why people get depressed is not a matter for empirical science, as you infer, and it is not something that can be "fixed" by physical displacement (movement).

I'm jolly glad that the people who make aeroplanes have a much more objective approach to physical reality than you do, 'Ghogsy.


It's a well known fact my friend; that folks who sit on their butts all the time are more likely to get depressed; if for no other reason than they cannot burn the stress chemicals off that accumulate in their bodies. Exercise is what makes that happen. And it is also a well known FACT that stress is associated with depression. That's just common sense but;

I suggest you get a health science degree like me; before you down another road you are clueless on, my friend..;)

If evolution is NOT the ABSOLUTE TRUTH; you wouldn't develop as an embryo with a tail my friend and precursors to gills; like your chimp-like ancestors and fish; and the rest of the common mammal ancestors with tails; like the rodent YOU use to be around 75 million years ago; more or less in still common DNA.

And before that star dust; according to Carl Sagan; and even more common sense.

ALL starts and ends at one point; and one point still exists in all that is, as is; and that's common sense for above so below STUFF; inside and outside you and all around GOD stuff too..:)


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31 May 2015, 5:42 am

ate another post



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31 May 2015, 4:15 pm

Inventor wrote:
ate another post
Yair, it does that. I found that if you wait for as long as it takes (long time) to be automatically returned to the thread with your post in it you can take the long way round and avoid the black hole that eats submissions. If the process "times out" you can still hit the "back button" and get back to your "post a reply" and either try again or save it to the Notebook to try again later.



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31 May 2015, 4:44 pm

aghogday wrote:
If evolution is NOT the ABSOLUTE TRUTH; you wouldn't develop as an embryo with a tail my friend and precursors to gills; like your chimp-like ancestors and fish; and the rest of the common mammal ancestors with tails; like the rodent YOU use to be around 75 million years ago; more or less in still common DNA.
That's a thoroughly debunked supposition. That embryos elongate before all the parts differentiate just happens to be the most efficient way for them to grow. It's just a good plan that works equally well for lots of different species.

If you want to argue science you'll need to do more homework.

"Evolution" is demonstrably "NOT the ABSOLUTE TRUTH". It is a religious/ideological fancy that has no basis in science.

Quote:
I suggest you get a health science degree like me; before you down another road you are clueless on, my friend..;)
As a matter of fact I'm not clueless about contemporary fads... I just happen to know things they don't want you to know and I've not abandoned "common sense" to get a ticket that says that I can only think what I'm told to think.



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31 May 2015, 4:53 pm

This might be a good time to reintroduce a commentary by this chap. There are some more interesting links at the bottom of the article cited.

http://archive.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed59.html

Reed's lack of reasonable conclusions does not much detract from his incisive criticism of the fad.



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31 May 2015, 5:16 pm

Oldavid wrote:
aghogday wrote:
If evolution is NOT the ABSOLUTE TRUTH; you wouldn't develop as an embryo with a tail my friend and precursors to gills; like your chimp-like ancestors and fish; and the rest of the common mammal ancestors with tails; like the rodent YOU use to be around 75 million years ago; more or less in still common DNA.
That's a thoroughly debunked supposition. That embryos elongate before all the parts differentiate just happens to be the most efficient way for them to grow. It's just a good plan that works equally well for lots of different species.

If you want to argue science you'll need to do more homework.

"Evolution" is demonstrably "NOT the ABSOLUTE TRUTH". It is a religious/ideological fancy that has no basis in science.

Quote:
I suggest you get a health science degree like me; before you down another road you are clueless on, my friend..;)
As a matter of fact I'm not clueless about contemporary fads... I just happen to know things they don't want you to know and I've not abandoned "common sense" to get a ticket that says that I can only think what I'm told to think.


"The most efficient way to grow"

That is precisely what evolution is, my friend.

You provide 'the proof' for me, I ask of you.

Thanks..;)

No, of course science does NOT actually prove
'much' in technical detail, per truth; IT is a path to larger
TRUTHS for those who can make the creative leaps of mind,
through a WHOLE mind of both detail and big picture thinking,
in mind and body
balance;
free of stress;
focused, and
A mean, lean,
functioning
human
FULLY ALIVE!

And not just
a sitting still
robot
machine
dead
alive.

Anyway, enjoy the ranch;
you are more fortunate
than most here to
still be
connected
to the GOD
of Nature
when you
leave here..;)


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31 May 2015, 6:12 pm

I think there is a definitive mathematical formula that governs all matter, energy, time, etc. but it is so immensely complex that we not only aren't close, but we have no reason to believe we will ever understand it in its entirety ("we" meaning sentient humans as we currently define them).

Life, however, I think we have a better chance at understanding. Evolution is currently a working theoretical "why", but it is incomplete in its current state because there are too many unexplained variables. Really, though, I think the primary motivator of all life is immortality, genetic or "personal". We are all compelled to move and grow and work, and there is no explanation for that if we are not innately motivated by our desire for immortality. Because of our genetic differences, we interact with one another differently, which means we subtly alter each other's paths allll the time because our best chance at survival is to assess our circumstances and adapt. Even culture and society are governed by evolution, but the illusions of will and meaning often prevent us from accepting that. We developed emotions and higher cognitive abilities because those things help us communicate and gain social status, which provides a greater level of fitness!

Studying disorders, sexuality, and hobbies offers us the best option at understanding the potential of life, I think. If we scrutinize the areas in which we as a species are most variable, we may happen upon striking genetic commonalities. We shouldn't accept modern evolutionary theory as infallible, because as life becomes more and more complex, nuance that may prove pivotal in our understanding of it might arise. I don't like the common belief that! humans have effectively undermined evolution... humans are changing very very gradually but we are still changing! And if all of our traits came to belong to us because of evolution, that also means our goals and behavior and even technological developments are only happening because of the course evolution has taken, right?

If there is no predetermined meaning, there is fulfillment to be found in pursuing evolutionary progress or acting in defiance of it. But I have a feeling that our collective pursuit of understanding/meaning has some significance. Maybe we only understand evolution in the context of time right now because we've yet to evolve beyond it. Perhaps our true purpose is to ascend through the dimensions until we encompass all of them. Who knows? All we can do is pursue truth.



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01 Jun 2015, 3:05 am

androm01374 wrote:
I think there is a definitive mathematical formula that governs all matter, energy, time, etc. but it is so immensely complex that we not only aren't close, but we have no reason to believe we will ever understand it in its entirety ("we" meaning sentient humans as we currently define them).

Life, however, I think we have a better chance at understanding. Evolution is currently a working theoretical "why", but it is incomplete in its current state because there are too many unexplained variables. Really, though, I think the primary motivator of all life is immortality, genetic or "personal". We are all compelled to move and grow and work, and there is no explanation for that if we are not innately motivated by our desire for immortality. Because of our genetic differences, we interact with one another differently, which means we subtly alter each other's paths allll the time because our best chance at survival is to assess our circumstances and adapt. Even culture and society are governed by evolution, but the illusions of will and meaning often prevent us from accepting that. We developed emotions and higher cognitive abilities because those things help us communicate and gain social status, which provides a greater level of fitness!

Studying disorders, sexuality, and hobbies offers us the best option at understanding the potential of life, I think. If we scrutinize the areas in which we as a species are most variable, we may happen upon striking genetic commonalities. We shouldn't accept modern evolutionary theory as infallible, because as life becomes more and more complex, nuance that may prove pivotal in our understanding of it might arise. I don't like the common belief that! humans have effectively undermined evolution... humans are changing very very gradually but we are still changing! And if all of our traits came to belong to us because of evolution, that also means our goals and behavior and even technological developments are only happening because of the course evolution has taken, right?

If there is no predetermined meaning, there is fulfillment to be found in pursuing evolutionary progress or acting in defiance of it. But I have a feeling that our collective pursuit of understanding/meaning has some significance. Maybe we only understand evolution in the context of time right now because we've yet to evolve beyond it. Perhaps our true purpose is to ascend through the dimensions until we encompass all of them. Who knows? All we can do is pursue truth.
Welcome to the fray. I hope your skin is a thick as your head.

If you assume Materialism (the religion/ideology) then anything and any fantasies, no matter how absurd according to observable reality, become "possibilities" then "facts" simply because they conform to he ideology; exactly the reverse of a scientific method.

Mathematical formulas can be concocted to suit any desired outcome... but they can't change reality.

"Evolution" doesn't even come close to "unexplained variables" as it is philosophically, physically, chemically, biologically, mathematically impossible in its essence according to observable reality.



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01 Jun 2015, 4:34 am

Oldavid wrote:
That life exists in all its complexity is a cold, hard objective fact that can be known with certainty by observation and experiment. Just what it is is beyond empirical science because it is a metaphysical thing... and it is certainly not just an agglomeration of atoms and chemicals, as can be seen where a dead thing may contain exactly the same chemicals and atoms as the previously live thing. You cannot make a dead thing live by just shifting it around (movement).

This has already been explained to you. Death always changes empirical, measurable things that are simply too complex to change back. There is no need to appeal to a supernatural life force.



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01 Jun 2015, 4:50 am

What is it? Life shows up once, as blue green algae about a billion years ago.

It lives in sea water, fees on sunlight and CO2.

It mutates into more complex forms that eat blue green algae.

Everything can be traced to that one event.

Chemical processes exist without life, make some of the same chemicals, but never a fragment of DNA.

Without that, no fragments of DNA forming whole DNA by accident. It never happened, it never happened a second time.

Life must be some coherent form of energy that can act on and organize matter.

Life as we know it is a coherent form of energy that leaves living things at the moment of death.

Neither the origin or destination of life is the material plane.

Life is as material as our thoughts.

Life is not random or driven by survival of the fittest.

The overall pattern since the beginning has been toward more complex forms.

The material universe moves toward disorder, life is moving the other way.

The amount of Bioenergy has been increasing, we are providing a larger host for a life energy that comes in an out of existence.

If we wanted to get with the program we could work to double the amount of life on this planet, which has been the long term plan.

We are but a small part of a massive being of energy involved in a fantastic artwork.

We could be more useful.



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01 Jun 2015, 6:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
This has already been explained to you. Death always changes empirical, measurable things that are simply too complex to change back. There is no need to appeal to a supernatural life force.
Nothing has "already been explained" and I never appealed to a supernatural "life force".
Quote:
Death always changes empirical, measurable things that are simply too complex to change back.
So, what things and how did they get there in the first place?



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01 Jun 2015, 6:15 am

Inventor wrote:
We are but a small part of a massive being of energy involved in a fantastic artwork.

We could be more useful.
I liked you better when the cyber-hole ate your submissions.

How do you know that "We are but a small part of a massive being of energy involved in a fantastic artwork"? To me the most fantastic artwork is the fantastic artworks of loonies completely detached from the constraints of reality.