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GoonSquad
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16 May 2015, 12:38 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
KaylamiYarne wrote:
sly279 wrote:
killed by dems, or killed by repubs.
I vote balancing act to which is the more closer threat, which for me and where I live is dems.
not really a good choice eitehr way :(

at least the the most part true libertarians just want to be left alone and leave others alone.


True libertarianism is that....respect others, leave us alone. The term gets misused a lot. It's about freedom, voluntary association and primacy of individual judgement.
Before bashing it completely....think of it. If everyone was free to do what they wanted, we would still have charities and organizations to help people. It would actually be easier to form an organization to help those with disabilities because we wouldn't have the government holding us back.
It's sad that people think government intervention is the only way we can receive help when we need it, when in fact the government is getting in the way of people helping each other (a woman got arrested for handing out money to poor people at her church)

I have not seen a single presidential candidate who's a true libertarian.

Edit: free to do what we wanted as long as it's not harming others.


I agree with you on the ideal, but in practical terms we live in a world of sociopaths and it wouldn't be long before said sociopaths started subverting the one rule (not harming others). Without strong checks and balances in place they would shackle and chain us all.

Yeah, we've tried this libertarian approach before. See "The Gilded Age." It didn't work then, and it would totally suck now.

As someone else observed, what passes for libertarian today is pot-smoking, republican, social darwinists. They'd just as soon see those of us who cannot work die.


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GoonSquad
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16 May 2015, 12:41 pm

Fogman wrote:
My main problem with public assistance is that public assistance is, at least in the government sense a system designed to spend lots of money to keep an army of social workers and caseworkers employed without truly helping people on public assistance to move off of public assistance into a workplace environment.

Sure, public assistance may provide shelter and housing, but that's basically a dead end that keeps caseworkers employed, and gives what amounts to a government subsidy to landlords who quite often are 'slumlords', without providing public assistance recipients with a means of moving beyond public assistance into something that will allow the recipients to benefit for themselves. --This is why I hate public assistance as it is, and why I think it needs a radical overhaul.

Public assistance HAD a radical overhaul.


Google TANF. The sort of program you are describing does not exist. These days nobody can actually live on a welfare benefit, there are work requirements, AND there's a 5year lifetime cap on benefits.


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16 May 2015, 12:58 pm

Fogman wrote:
My main problem with public assistance is that public assistance is, at least in the government sense a system designed to spend lots of money to keep an army of social workers and caseworkers employed without truly helping people on public assistance to move off of public assistance into a workplace environment.

Sure, public assistance may provide shelter and housing, but that's basically a dead end that keeps caseworkers employed, and gives what amounts to a government subsidy to landlords who quite often are 'slumlords', without providing public assistance recipients with a means of moving beyond public assistance into something that will allow the recipients to benefit for themselves. --This is why I hate public assistance as it is, and why I think it needs a radical overhaul.


A lot of times by getting people off public assistence they mean if you make or have in your bank account an amount of money slightly above certain limits they can cut you off regardless of if you've actually reached a place you don't need the government assistance. It would be much better if they actually help people and allow them to attempt to save up and maybe even invest in things or whatever....but there are nuisances in the policies that do seem to ensure people on public assistance remain in poverty which does bother me. Its like they almost want to ensure even if you get taken off public assistance that you're still well below the poverty line.

So yeah it certainly does need changes...also though in some cases there are other things that have to be addressed before trying to get someone off public assistence....for instance if there was a push for me to get off SSI disability, then I'd still be in the same predicament I was before the SSI of having conditions that prevent me from holding employment and no income whatsoever. Obviously there are things that need adressing before I can realistically have the goal of 'getting off public assistence' though I imagine even if I stop needing the SSI I'd still need food stamps and medicaid(or something since minimum wage work likely would not be a huge improvement from the SSI.


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GoonSquad
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16 May 2015, 12:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
KaylamiYarne wrote:
sly279 wrote:
killed by dems, or killed by repubs.
I vote balancing act to which is the more closer threat, which for me and where I live is dems.
not really a good choice eitehr way :(

at least the the most part true libertarians just want to be left alone and leave others alone.


True libertarianism is that....respect others, leave us alone. The term gets misused a lot. It's about freedom, voluntary association and primacy of individual judgement.
Before bashing it completely....think of it. If everyone was free to do what they wanted, we would still have charities and organizations to help people. It would actually be easier to form an organization to help those with disabilities because we wouldn't have the government holding us back.
It's sad that people think government intervention is the only way we can receive help when we need it, when in fact the government is getting in the way of people helping each other (a woman got arrested for handing out money to poor people at her church)

I have not seen a single presidential candidate who's a true libertarian.

Edit: free to do what we wanted as long as it's not harming others.


If I had faith that voluntary Charity alone could replace the entire current safety social network...and even do a better job, then I might be quicker to dismiss government assistance as entirely useless and unnecessary. But in the current system/society I don't see that as very realistic and I still need to eat and have money to cover basic expenses and have access to medical care...somehow I do not think the voluntary charity in my area could cover all that, especially for any ongoing length of time. Ideally a society in which Charity effectively addressed poverty where government assistance is not needed would be great....I am just not convinced we have such a society, thus taking away the social safety network I think would do more harm than good currently at least. As is with charity and government assistance poverty is still a major problem...taking one of those away does not seem like a valid solution.

Government intervention is not the only way to address poverty....but I feel the government does have a duty to its citizens. So it cannot very well ignore it and leave it up to private organizations who happen to have a kind heart at the moment...not to say the current social safety network couldn't used vast improvements but getting rid of it entirely which seems to be what libertarian-ism aims for is not really something I can support.


Another HUGE problem with charities is that they are mostly religious based and because of this the methods/practices they employ are dictated by religious dogma rather than research and evidence.

As an example, it established by tons of research, that "housing first" (housing without requirement of sobriety, etc.) is the only way to treat chronic homelessness.

However, religious based homeless charities refuse to employ this model because it "rewards sin." In their model, only those homeless people who EARN the right to shelter are worthy of help.

I used to see this s**t in action everyday, when I was interning at the a local housing program. The only really effective program they had was for veterans. It was run by the charity, but funded by the VA. They insisted on "housing first" for vets, and it worked.

In spite of the success of the program, they would not/could not implement it in other programs because the religious donors would not allow it. :roll:

As bad as government might be, it is a hell of a lot better than anything private charities will provide.


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Sweetleaf
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16 May 2015, 1:00 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
KaylamiYarne wrote:
sly279 wrote:
killed by dems, or killed by repubs.
I vote balancing act to which is the more closer threat, which for me and where I live is dems.
not really a good choice eitehr way :(

at least the the most part true libertarians just want to be left alone and leave others alone.


True libertarianism is that....respect others, leave us alone. The term gets misused a lot. It's about freedom, voluntary association and primacy of individual judgement.
Before bashing it completely....think of it. If everyone was free to do what they wanted, we would still have charities and organizations to help people. It would actually be easier to form an organization to help those with disabilities because we wouldn't have the government holding us back.
It's sad that people think government intervention is the only way we can receive help when we need it, when in fact the government is getting in the way of people helping each other (a woman got arrested for handing out money to poor people at her church)

I have not seen a single presidential candidate who's a true libertarian.

Edit: free to do what we wanted as long as it's not harming others.


I agree with you on the ideal, but in practical terms we live in a world of sociopaths and it wouldn't be long before said sociopaths started subverting the one rule (not harming others). Without strong checks and balances in place they would shackle and chain us all.

Yeah, we've tried this libertarian approach before. See "The Gilded Age." It didn't work then, and it would totally suck now.

As someone else observed, what passes for libertarian today is pot-smoking, republican, social darwinists. They'd just as soon see those of us who cannot work die.


I'd think maybe they are putting something a bit less mellowing than pot in their pipes....since most pot smokers I know don't care much for social Darwinism.


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GoonSquad
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16 May 2015, 1:06 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I'd think maybe they are putting something a bit less mellowing than pot in their pipes....since most pot smokers I know don't care much for social Darwinism.

Could be...

Then again, I bet most of the pot smokers you know aren't republicans either. :wink:


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Sweetleaf
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16 May 2015, 1:09 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
KaylamiYarne wrote:
sly279 wrote:
killed by dems, or killed by repubs.
I vote balancing act to which is the more closer threat, which for me and where I live is dems.
not really a good choice eitehr way :(

at least the the most part true libertarians just want to be left alone and leave others alone.


True libertarianism is that....respect others, leave us alone. The term gets misused a lot. It's about freedom, voluntary association and primacy of individual judgement.
Before bashing it completely....think of it. If everyone was free to do what they wanted, we would still have charities and organizations to help people. It would actually be easier to form an organization to help those with disabilities because we wouldn't have the government holding us back.
It's sad that people think government intervention is the only way we can receive help when we need it, when in fact the government is getting in the way of people helping each other (a woman got arrested for handing out money to poor people at her church)

I have not seen a single presidential candidate who's a true libertarian.

Edit: free to do what we wanted as long as it's not harming others.


If I had faith that voluntary Charity alone could replace the entire current safety social network...and even do a better job, then I might be quicker to dismiss government assistance as entirely useless and unnecessary. But in the current system/society I don't see that as very realistic and I still need to eat and have money to cover basic expenses and have access to medical care...somehow I do not think the voluntary charity in my area could cover all that, especially for any ongoing length of time. Ideally a society in which Charity effectively addressed poverty where government assistance is not needed would be great....I am just not convinced we have such a society, thus taking away the social safety network I think would do more harm than good currently at least. As is with charity and government assistance poverty is still a major problem...taking one of those away does not seem like a valid solution.

Government intervention is not the only way to address poverty....but I feel the government does have a duty to its citizens. So it cannot very well ignore it and leave it up to private organizations who happen to have a kind heart at the moment...not to say the current social safety network couldn't used vast improvements but getting rid of it entirely which seems to be what libertarian-ism aims for is not really something I can support.


Another HUGE problem with charities is that they are mostly religious based and because of this the methods/practices they employ are dictated by religious dogma rather than research and evidence.

As an example, it established by tons of research, that "housing first" (housing without requirement of sobriety, etc.) is the only way to treat chronic homelessness.

However, religious based homeless charities refuse to employ this model because it "rewards sin." In their model, only those homeless people who EARN the right to shelter are worthy of help.

I used to see this s**t in action everyday, when I was interning at the a local housing program. The only really effective program they had was for veterans. It was run by the charity, but funded by the VA. They insisted on "housing first" for vets, and it worked.

In spite of the success of the program, they would not/could not implement it in other programs because the religious donors would not allow it. :roll:

As bad as government might be, it is a hell of a lot better than anything private charities will provide.


Yes there is that as well, I was going to bring up those issues but figured my post was getting a bit lengthy. But yes the religious dogma involved in many private charities would be problematic. Of course not all religious based charities have that kind of judgmental attitude...but enough of them do to where it could be a problem. But yeah I even learned in psychology where addiction is concerned added stress tends to amplify addictive behavior....hence telling someone 'you have to get 100% clean and sober before we help you with shelter' is more likely to contribute to them using even more...than if they where given the help with shelter and get their basic survival established then they'll be in a much better place for help with said addiction. Then there is also the issue of non-addiction drug use and self medication which have to be taken into consideration...some Charity organizations likely see it all as one and the same even though science says differently.


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16 May 2015, 1:14 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I'd think maybe they are putting something a bit less mellowing than pot in their pipes....since most pot smokers I know don't care much for social Darwinism.

Could be...

Then again, I bet most of the pot smokers you know aren't republicans either. :wink:


Probably no specific 'republicans' but there are certainly some that lean more right than left that I know...just not to the extent they want to see the poor and disabled done away with or left to fall through the cracks and hopefully sink without causing a problem. I guess those people are somewhat poor as well and sense enough to realize they don't want to support things that will come and bit them in the a**, just so they can fit the stereotype of a proper right winger.


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16 May 2015, 2:06 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I'd think maybe they are putting something a bit less mellowing than pot in their pipes....since most pot smokers I know don't care much for social Darwinism.

Could be...

Then again, I bet most of the pot smokers you know aren't republicans either. :wink:


Probably no specific 'republicans' but there are certainly some that lean more right than left that I know...just not to the extent they want to see the poor and disabled done away with or left to fall through the cracks and hopefully sink without causing a problem. I guess those people are somewhat poor as well and sense enough to realize they don't want to support things that will come and bit them in the a**, just so they can fit the stereotype of a proper right winger.


I just don't understand why there's even an argument about the legalization of marijuana. Many OTC medicines are more harmful, as well as alcohol. And legalizing marijuana would be excellent for the economy. The marijuana industry would create jobs, and might even decrease the rate of alcoholism (more people would turn to marijuana to calm down, and it's less addictive than alcohol). Prohibition puts a huge unnecessary cost and time waste on the government.
It sickens me how difficult it is for those with disabilities to find access to marijuana.
That's one thing I like about libertarianism. As long as it's peaceful, it's legal. But as with any economic system there are flaws...



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16 May 2015, 2:16 pm

KaylamiYarne wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I'd think maybe they are putting something a bit less mellowing than pot in their pipes....since most pot smokers I know don't care much for social Darwinism.

Could be...

Then again, I bet most of the pot smokers you know aren't republicans either. :wink:


Probably no specific 'republicans' but there are certainly some that lean more right than left that I know...just not to the extent they want to see the poor and disabled done away with or left to fall through the cracks and hopefully sink without causing a problem. I guess those people are somewhat poor as well and sense enough to realize they don't want to support things that will come and bit them in the a**, just so they can fit the stereotype of a proper right winger.


I just don't understand why there's even an argument about the legalization of marijuana. Many OTC medicines are more harmful, as well as alcohol. And legalizing marijuana would be excellent for the economy. The marijuana industry would create jobs, and might even decrease the rate of alcoholism (more people would turn to marijuana to calm down, and it's less addictive than alcohol). Prohibition puts a huge unnecessary cost and time waste on the government.
It sickens me how difficult it is for those with disabilities to find access to marijuana.
That's one thing I like about libertarianism. As long as it's peaceful, it's legal. But as with any economic system there are flaws...


Here in Washington state, we've legalized pot, and as a blue state with conservatives living in the boondocks areas, we're hardly libertarian.


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16 May 2015, 2:25 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
All the libertarians I've debated are really disdainful towards those on public assistance, even if they work, which would be many if not most of us with Asperger's syndrome. They can't fathom the idea of someone who is physically able bodied and has a high IQ as struggling with work and employment. It seems like they would rather see millions starve to death on the street than tax the rich and corporations at a higher rate than those who are living paycheck to paycheck.

I think their priorities are completely out of whack and it shows considering they will almost always elect a religious zealot conservative over a Democrat and definitely over a socialist.


It's not about wanting people to starve but smaller less intrusive government and personal freedoms and responsibilities.
Any benefits from government are mere table scrap by-products of all the bureaucracy. Government lackies are much more interested in the agency they work for than you......


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KaylamiYarne
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16 May 2015, 2:26 pm

KaylamiYarne wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I'd think maybe they are putting something a bit less mellowing than pot in their pipes....since most pot smokers I know don't care much for social Darwinism.

Could be...

Then again, I bet most of the pot smokers you know aren't republicans either. :wink:


Probably no specific 'republicans' but there are certainly some that lean more right than left that I know...just not to the extent they want to see the poor and disabled done away with or left to fall through the cracks and hopefully sink without causing a problem. I guess those people are somewhat poor as well and sense enough to realize they don't want to support things that will come and bit them in the a**, just so they can fit the stereotype of a proper right winger.


I just don't understand why there's even an argument about the legalization of marijuana. Many OTC medicines are more harmful, as well as alcohol. And legalizing marijuana would be excellent for the economy. The marijuana industry would create jobs, and might even decrease the rate of alcoholism (more people would turn to marijuana to calm down, and it's less addictive than alcohol). Prohibition puts a huge unnecessary cost and time waste on the government.
It sickens me how difficult it is for those with disabilities to find access to marijuana.
That's one thing I like about libertarianism. As long as it's peaceful, it's legal. But as with any economic system there are flaws...


But that misses the point. 1, it's not legal everywhere in the US and 2, under libertarianism pot wouldn't have been prohibited in the first place.



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16 May 2015, 2:30 pm

What do you mean Libertarians? Are you arguing the party platform? I don't understand. The are dickish people of every political persuasion, liberal/conservative/communist/green/whatever. You seem to be confusing the ultradogma of Objectivism with the vague notion that we as individuals are entitled to liberty, to say "libertarians all believe in X, Y, and Z" is just wrong. It is not a religion. When you meet one libertarian, you've met exactly one libertarian and good luck getting two to agree on everything for the same reasons. As such, the movement is pretty fractious and can explain the success the Libertarian Party has had in accomplishing nothing. I don't really care for labels or political parties, I'll lend my support to whoever passes whatever threshold I've set in that election. I don't believe in things because they're considered right of left wing, some my views can be seen as very conservative and some can be seen as radically liberal so its not something I try to get pigeonholed into

There is a difference between idealistic vacuum-sealed perfect world positions in an academic discussion where you may be trying to be provocative and pragmatic political beliefs about policy if you were to gain that power that moment. Kind of like how some on the left can look towards certain aspect of the idea of communism as noble where as at the same time not advocating the violent revolution and state coercion that came along with the communist dictatorships of the 20th century. So yeah, if you ask if I think the idea that taxation is theft then I would probably say yes but to try to make the leap from there to the idea that I am some radical Social Darwinist that thinks that you specifically should die in the streets because of that couldn't be anything further from the truth at least for me since I am in the same boat as a lot you folks here as far as the struggle goes.



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16 May 2015, 2:43 pm

Jacoby wrote:
What do you mean Libertarians? Are you arguing the party platform? I don't understand. The are dickish people of every political persuasion, liberal/conservative/communist/green/whatever. You seem to be confusing the ultradogma of Objectivism with the vague notion that we as individuals are entitled to liberty, to say "libertarians all believe in X, Y, and Z" is just wrong. It is not a religion. When you meet one libertarian, you've met exactly one libertarian and good luck getting two to agree on everything for the same reasons. As such, the movement is pretty fractious and can explain the success the Libertarian Party has had in accomplishing nothing. I don't really care for labels or political parties, I'll lend my support to whoever passes whatever threshold I've set in that election. I don't believe in things because they're considered right of left wing, some my views can be seen as very conservative and some can be seen as radically liberal so its not something I try to get pigeonholed into

There is a difference between idealistic vacuum-sealed perfect world positions in an academic discussion where you may be trying to be provocative and pragmatic political beliefs about policy if you were to gain that power that moment. Kind of like how some on the left can look towards certain aspect of the idea of communism as noble where as at the same time not advocating the violent revolution and state coercion that came along with the communist dictatorships of the 20th century. So yeah, if you ask if I think the idea that taxation is theft then I would probably say yes but to try to make the leap from there to the idea that I am some radical Social Darwinist that thinks that you specifically should die in the streets because of that couldn't be anything further from the truth at least for me since I am in the same boat as a lot you folks here as far as the struggle goes.


You've communicated a lot of my thoughts which I've been meaning to say myself. Well said...every economic system has its flaws and I think it's stupid to assume that everything has its own perfect, clear cut category.



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16 May 2015, 2:47 pm

There will always be bad people. It doesn't matter what economic system we're under; the liars and cheaters and greedy will always find a way.



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16 May 2015, 3:58 pm

The word "libertarian" has been hi-jacked by certain right wing organizations in recent years. They like to describe themselves as libertarian because it's a good sounding word, but rarely if ever use it in a manner consistent with its actual definition.

Samuel Edward Konkin III wrote the "New Libertarian Manifesto" in the late 1970s (it was first printed in 1980) and in it he outlined the actual moral foundation of libertarianism. This was long before the word was stolen by the Republican party. You can Google it and the first result should be a .pdf file that you can read. Another good resource (which most people find to be an easier read) is a more contemporary which you can read here: Freedom

In Konkin's document, he explains that a libertarian believes that all human beings should be treated as equals regardless of race, gender, or other such arbitrary factors and that no group or individual has the right to own another human being, that people own themselves. This is the foundation of true libertarianism.

From this, something called the "Non-Aggression Principal" is derived. This is the idea that it's morally wrong to initiate violence against a peaceful person, threaten to initiate violence against them, steal from them or coerce them into doing something that they don't want to do. I'd like to think that most people would agree with this idea. It's certainly one that most people hold to most of the time. However, it's apparent that there are people who believe that it is acceptable to engage in assault, murder, kidnapping, etc. because people still do it.

To quote the text directly, "Libertarianism elaborates an entire philosophy from one simple premise: initiatory violence or its threat (coercion) is wrong and is forbidden; nothing else is."

So, gay marriage, legalizing pot, etc. are all things that true libertarians support, but the militarization of police, constantly starting conflicts in other parts of the world and so on are things that libertarians oppose.

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that the only reason a lot of mega-corporations are still afloat is because they receive bailouts and special tax breaks that smaller businesses don't. If you read the full document, you'll find that the libertarian philosophy is fundamentally opposed to bailing out the rich as has been common practice in recent years. Currently, they don't have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. In a libertarian society, they would have no mechanism for extorting money from the lower and middle classes to fund their endeavors.

There are now and have always been people who choose to give a certain percentage of their income to the less fortunate. This is a good thing. I don't have any money to give away, but I've volunteered quite a bit at a couple of local non-profits. Libertarianism isn't social Darwinism, it's just an opposition to the idea that one group of people can tell you "Give us X amount of money or men with guns will hunt you down and do bad things to you" or "stop self-medicating and take the drugs we tell you to take or men with guns will hunt you down and do bad things to you," even though any other party would go to prison for that type of behavior (and rightly so).

We don't want an "enforcer" class that's allowed to get away with extortion, assault, kidnapping and often even murder (as is currently the status quo). It's about equal rights for all people to do as they please without fear of someone else claiming that their group has moral authority to rob and attack peaceful people.

As I said before though, in recent years it's been conflated with a lot of Republican beliefs that have no place in Libertarianism.