Trump: abandon no first use of nukes against ISIS

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AR15000
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28 Mar 2016, 2:22 am

Adamantium wrote:
AR15000 wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
It is untrue that a "neutron bomb" or ERW produces no fallout.



Evidence, please?



The fission primary still produces fallout.
It's nonsense to present these weapons as "clean" or producing no fallout.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... /snow.html
http://fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/radiation.htm

Nice pie charts from the BBC, along with an explanation of why they might be hard to deploy at present:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/395689.stm



In the future it will be possible to build pure-fusion weapons which will produce an intense burst of ionizing radiation when detonated in the air without any substantial amount of fallout.

The neutron bomb is an example of a boosted nuclear weapon(fusion boosted fission), like the Sloika design credited to Andrei Sakharov. Now it turns out that clean nuclear weapons with a fission stage CAN indeed be built! An example of one was the Tsar Bomba detonated in 1961 with a whopping 50 Megatons. The way to make a fission bomb without any appreciable amount of fallout is to use a neutron absorbing tamper. THAT is the kind of device that should be used as a tactical nuclear weapon so the neutron bomb really isn't the best choice here.

Needless to say, if ISIS does use *any* kind of nuclear weapon in a terrorist attack, including a radiological "dirty bomb", then I daresay the use of tactical nuclear weapons against them is complete justified.



GGPViper
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28 Mar 2016, 2:41 am

AR15000 wrote:
Needless to say, if ISIS does use *any* kind of nuclear weapon in a terrorist attack, including a radiological "dirty bomb", then I daresay the use of tactical nuclear weapons against them is complete justified.

Why? Do you have some sort of fetish for killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians?



Adamantium
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28 Mar 2016, 3:54 am

AR15000 wrote:
In the future it will be possible to build pure-fusion weapons which will produce an intense burst of ionizing radiation when detonated in the air without any substantial amount of fallout.

In the future, it may will be possible to construct flying monkeys with lasers for eyes who will hover over people the US president doesn't like and vaporize them instantly. At present it is not possible and neither is a pure fusion weapon. The US tried very hard to make one and not only failed, but gave up the attempt, suggesting that something more than a minor obstacle lies in the way of pursuing that idea.

In the real world, it's simply untrue to talk about existing nuclear weapons as clean or non-contaminating.

Quote:
The neutron bomb is an example of a boosted nuclear weapon(fusion boosted fission), like the Sloika design credited to Andrei Sakharov. Now it turns out that clean nuclear weapons with a fission stage CAN indeed be built! An example of one was the Tsar Bomba detonated in 1961 with a whopping 50 Megatons. The way to make a fission bomb without any appreciable amount of fallout is to use a neutron absorbing tamper. THAT is the kind of device that should be used as a tactical nuclear weapon so the neutron bomb really isn't the best choice here.


Your research is still misleading you into a fantasy about clean nuclear weapons.

Yes, the lead shielding and multistage fission-fusion-fusion design in Tsar Bomba reduced the fission product release by 97%.

Superficially, that sounds great. But Tsar Bomba was 3,846 times more powerful than the Hiroshima device.
It has been estimated that Tsar Bomba's fallout was equivalent to a 1.5 megaton fission weapon, 100 times greater than Hiroshima.

While that is obviously much cleaner than 3,846 times greater than Hiroshima, I don't think you would find many people who would go along with the idea that 100 times the fallout from Hiroshima could be considered clean or acceptable collateral damage from cooking up a bunch of jihadis (and vast numbers of innocent civilians)

Clean is a relative concept. Nuclear weapons of any size and design yet produced are dirty, regardless of their qualities relative to other weapons.

Trump is unfit to be president and has already done immense harm to the United States just by revealing how many Americans are ready to support a rich blowhard with obscene ideas.



enz
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28 Mar 2016, 4:01 am

If it wasn't for the second Iraq war there wouldnt be all these recruits for Isis around the world. where a busy city playground is targeted by terrorists

I fear the repercussions if this happens



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28 Mar 2016, 10:59 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
I think about 50 MOABs should do the trick. They are non radioactive produce a large enough explosion and are environmentally friendly! Ohhhh Green Peace should be proud! :mrgreen:

I've thought about this too, but I still think they would produce too much collateral damage. The best way to take down ISIS would be a nice, clean surgical strike, IMO. Fight smarter, not harder.


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28 Mar 2016, 12:21 pm

You can't nuke an ideology out of existence without committing atrocities to innocents or simply removing humanity from the equation altogether. This is dangerous rhetoric.


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AR15000
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28 Mar 2016, 2:13 pm

Adamantium wrote:

In the future, it may will be possible to construct flying monkeys with lasers for eyes who will hover over people the US president doesn't like and vaporize them instantly. At present it is not possible and neither is a pure fusion weapon. The US tried very hard to make one and not only failed, but gave up the attempt, suggesting that something more than a minor obstacle lies in the way of pursuing that idea.

In the real world, it's simply untrue to talk about existing nuclear weapons as clean or non-contaminating.

Quote:
The neutron bomb is an example of a boosted nuclear weapon(fusion boosted fission), like the Sloika design credited to Andrei Sakharov. Now it turns out that clean nuclear weapons with a fission stage CAN indeed be built! An example of one was the Tsar Bomba detonated in 1961 with a whopping 50 Megatons. The way to make a fission bomb without any appreciable amount of fallout is to use a neutron absorbing tamper. THAT is the kind of device that should be used as a tactical nuclear weapon so the neutron bomb really isn't the best choice here.


Your research is still misleading you into a fantasy about clean nuclear weapons.

Yes, the lead shielding and multistage fission-fusion-fusion design in Tsar Bomba reduced the fission product release by 97%.

Superficially, that sounds great. But Tsar Bomba was 3,846 times more powerful than the Hiroshima device.
It has been estimated that Tsar Bomba's fallout was equivalent to a 1.5 megaton fission weapon, 100 times greater than Hiroshima.

While that is obviously much cleaner than 3,846 times greater than Hiroshima, I don't think you would find many people who would go along with the idea that 100 times the fallout from Hiroshima could be considered clean or acceptable collateral damage from cooking up a bunch of jihadis (and vast numbers of innocent civilians)

Clean is a relative concept. Nuclear weapons of any size and design yet produced are dirty, regardless of their qualities relative to other weapons.

Trump is unfit to be president and has already done immense harm to the United States just by revealing how many Americans are ready to support a rich blowhard with obscene ideas.



OK, so the main obstacle to a pure fusion weapon has a lot do with achieving the necessary energy density/radiation pressure to ignite the fusion reaction using a compact device. The z-pinch technique has been successfully used to ignite fusion but the hardware is far too bulky to be used in a pure fusion nuclear weapon. One potential method that really could work, but has never been tested, is using a tiny amount of antimatter. But this would be prohibitively expensive to produce and dangerous to store.

What you would need is a new type of ultra-capacitor that can store several thousand farads of charge at extremely high voltage. Or one where the internal resistance could be lowered to << 1 Ohm when a high voltage electric field is applied to it. Pure-fusion devices using Explosively Pumped Flux Compression Generators are have been proposed but the theoretical yield estimates aren't very promising. However, to my knowledge such devices have never been tested.


But it IS true that any nuclear weapon with a fission state is going to produce radioactive fallout. Particularly because of fission products like Strontium-90 with a half-life of 29 years(among others).



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28 Mar 2016, 5:09 pm

I wish all nuclear weapons would be destroyed, frankly.

If we EVER use nuclear weapons, we have a problem on our hands. By using nuclear weapons, we have okayed other, less (shall we say) restrained governments from using them.

97% less fallout is still fallout, and still would cause a massive amount of death over a large area.

If Trump pushes this agenda, that's it for Trump.



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28 Mar 2016, 6:56 pm

Putin said, We will not nuke ISIS, yet.

The Russian Battle Plan has been updated, from only if attacked, to looks like an attack.

So much for putting missiles of Peace on the Russian border. That is not for defense from the Sultan of Brunei, it is for a first strike on Russia. We swore we would not, we lied.

Putin also said, I could destroy the United States in ten minutes. He could.

ISIS is an American created force. The Saudi's recently claimed to acquired seven atomic bombs from Pakistan.

Maybe it was Israel.

England and France lead the attack on Libya. Then did nothing as ISIS took over.

The list of idiots and targets is growing.



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28 Mar 2016, 7:04 pm

Anything else is irrelevant. So what if we created ISIS. If we did, it was a mistake we have to acknowledge. Now, we must destroy them! But not with nuclear weaons.

If Putin is even dreaming of using nuclear weapons, then I'd say he's a certified nut. We don't need that sort in the international community. That guy, I swear, wants to start the Cold War again.



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29 Mar 2016, 12:47 am

The Cold War has been restarted in your name. You are losing.

The people who started ISIS, are terrorists. There are no civilians, drones and bombs do not care.

America is behind Brussels, Paris, Pakistan, and a hundred other attacks.

The US, Israel, the Saudis, Turkey, are behind ISIS forming a Caliphate between Iraq and Syria.

The goal was to block a pipeline, all that blood is on your hands.

The blood of Ukraine is on American hands.

Assets seized, coasts blockaded, economies sanctioned, millions died.

The torture at Abu Greb went on for ten years. They were Iraqis being tortured for being in their own country.

Others were shot down on the street, while driving on the roads, or in their houses.

We bomb weddings and funerals. We are not the good guys, they do not hate our freedoms.

After we left we sent in Saudi supported ISIS to continue the torture of the people.

You can not just apologize for that behavior.



AR15000
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29 Mar 2016, 3:24 am

Inventor wrote:
The Cold War has been restarted in your name. You are losing.

The people who started ISIS, are terrorists. There are no civilians, drones and bombs do not care.

America is behind Brussels, Paris, Pakistan, and a hundred other attacks.

The US, Israel, the Saudis, Turkey, are behind ISIS forming a Caliphate between Iraq and Syria.

The goal was to block a pipeline, all that blood is on your hands.

The blood of Ukraine is on American hands.

Assets seized, coasts blockaded, economies sanctioned, millions died.

The torture at Abu Greb went on for ten years. They were Iraqis being tortured for being in their own country.

Others were shot down on the street, while driving on the roads, or in their houses.

We bomb weddings and funerals. We are not the good guys, they do not hate our freedoms.

After we left we sent in Saudi supported ISIS to continue the torture of the people.

You can not just apologize for that behavior.




Alright........now you're going off the deep end. ISIS was created by Sunni insurgents during the Iraqi civil war of the 00s and the founders were part of an Al Qaida wing calling itself Al Qaeda in Iraq. There is a grain of truth to Turkish support for ISIS, but this organization threatens to disrupt oil exports out of the middle east and has already carried out terrorist attacks in the US.