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zen_mistress
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14 Mar 2008, 4:29 am

Hi,

I am seeking opinions of this event that happened about one year ago, I was thinking about it this morning...

I was at an engagement party of a friend, a girl I had known a bit for 10 years. She and fiance are Jewish, they follow kosher and stuff though they are not 100% strict with it, she drinks and parties etc. But they and their families observe their faith.

I was at this party, feeling emotionally fragile as I had been dropped by a guy the night before and he was now at the party looking for new girls.

So I didnt want to be there and felt like I would burst into tears any second. I was far away from home and I kept touching a small diamante cross I was wearing around my neck which my mother gave to me. Strangely, it was helping me feel a bit better.

A (non-religious) girl I was talking to said to me later in the party: "I think you should take your cross off. You are at a Jewish party and the people will be offended by it. There are some bad historical politics between Catholic people and Jewish people. I know you are not trying to offend, but they dont know you."

Unfortunately my reaction was an anger meltdown, as I was already feeling very depressed and she was trying to convince me to remove the one thing that was making me feel better.

It wasnt pretty and I felt angry at myself for having the meltdown in public.

I guess I am asking this as I think it all comes down to theory of mind.

To this day I dont know whether I was committing a serious faux pas or whether she was just being a bit ridiculous.

I hadnt detected any disapproval from the Jewish people at the party, I sort of thought that they understood about the cross as they had their own beliefs. But then, Im not really good at detecting anything!

Anyone have any opinions? Should I have taken the cross off or hidden it inside my clothing?


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LeKiwi
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14 Mar 2008, 5:50 am

I find non-religious people do that a lot. At least in the UK. For example, now school's aren't allowed to call Christmas Christmas, it's "winter holiday festival" or something similar, for fear from the PC crowd that they might offend people of other religions. I don't know anyone from any other faith who would be offended at Christians in a Christian country celebrating Christmas like they always have done. Likewise with Easter... there've been plenty of other instances there too that I can't recall at present. But it always seems to be the non-religious PC bunch who make assumptions that people from other faiths would be offended, when if you actually ask those people they tend to shrug their shoulders and say "I don't care, doesn't bother me, they can do what they like - it's their religion, they can believe what they like, as long as they don't mind me celebrating my own religion too".


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zen_mistress
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14 Mar 2008, 6:47 am

Thanks for the reply, Lekiwi. Yes I do agree that there is way too much PC around, Ill never be into all that PC as I think self-expression is more important, unless I am offending someone in an obvious way.

I thought I would add this detail to the post: The atheist girl had a story to back up what she was saying:
the mother of the Jewish bride-to-be once freaked out because the bride-to-be aged 18 brought home a guy who was wearing a cross earring.

The atheist girl refered to this event when she was suggesting I hide my cross.


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LeKiwi
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14 Mar 2008, 7:04 am

Hmm. Well, if she's been worried about it before then perhaps it might have made a difference, but you weren't the possible-future-husband-of-the-daughter, so maybe that time she was more worried about the daughter being with a non-Jewish boy than the cross itself? I'm perhaps not the best person to ask!! But if she didn't say anything or appear too concerned then I don't see why it should have been a problem? Also, lots of people wear crosses just as a fashion accessory these days too, even if they aren't Christian... I don't see why it would have been offensive...


(By the way, I love your signature... The Prophet is my favourite book of all time, it's so beautiful!!)


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zen_mistress
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14 Mar 2008, 7:30 am

LeKiwi wrote:
Hmm. Well, if she's been worried about it before then perhaps it might have made a difference, but you weren't the possible-future-husband-of-the-daughter, so maybe that time she was more worried about the daughter being with a non-Jewish boy than the cross itself? I'm perhaps not the best person to ask!! But if she didn't say anything or appear too concerned then I don't see why it should have been a problem? Also, lots of people wear crosses just as a fashion accessory these days too, even if they aren't Christian... I don't see why it would have been offensive...

(By the way, I love your signature... The Prophet is my favourite book of all time, it's so beautiful!!)


Thanks, it is nice to know I am not the only one who viewed things that way.. at the time I felt like I had unknowingly been parading my family's christianity around in an inappropriate setting.. or something.

About Kahlil Gibran, yes I love the way he views things, writing about ordinary everyday events in a poetic, philosophical way, yet very down-to-earth...

C
...


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spudnik
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15 Mar 2008, 1:23 pm

Some people take what they think is political correctness to far, I don't think any jewish people would have been offended by your cross, these days its not unusual to see a christmas tree up at your jewish neighbors for hanukkah. Wear your cross proudly, because it doesn't stop people of other faiths from wearing their symbols of faith.



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15 Mar 2008, 2:34 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
To this day I dont know whether I was committing a serious faux pas or whether she was just being a bit ridiculous.
Possibly both. Unfortunately, intolerance is still considered socially acceptable in some places, and it is a complete waste of nerves.

Quote:
I hadnt detected any disapproval from the Jewish people at the party, I sort of thought that they understood about the cross as they had their own beliefs. But then, Im not really good at detecting anything!
They probably didn't notice.

Quote:
Anyone have any opinions? Should I have taken the cross off or hidden it inside my clothing?
No. Make no room in your life for intolerance. Trample it until it dies.



Griff
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15 Mar 2008, 2:38 pm

spudnik wrote:
Some people take what they think is political correctness to far, I don't think any jewish people would have been offended by your cross, these days its not unusual to see a christmas tree up at your jewish neighbors for hanukkah. Wear your cross proudly, because it doesn't stop people of other faiths from wearing their symbols of faith.
Are you kidding? "Every Jewish girl wants to decorate a tree," said one of Gary's salespeople. Jewish trees are usually decorated mainly with blue and white, maybe with instances of other colors to keep it from being bland. When I was helping her to balance out the decorations on the one they had in the window, we were making jokes about helping her "unjew" their tree (because, apparently, Jews are incompetent at decorating Christmas/Hannukah trees. This sounds like some Brooklynese superstition, really, the way she was saying it).



spudnik
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15 Mar 2008, 3:01 pm

Some people don't know how to decorate trees regardless of faith, I think its something to do with to much alcohol as in my case



Griff
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15 Mar 2008, 3:17 pm

Now, Spudnik! Shame on you! You shouldn't insinuate that all Jews are drunks!

Hehehe, however, the sales girl in question can't stop ranting about her husband's drinking problem.

He's Baptist, though.



spudnik
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17 Mar 2008, 12:31 am

No not all of them, but I sure am christmas eve :D



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17 Mar 2008, 8:19 am

LeKiwi wrote:
I find non-religious people do that a lot. At least in the UK. For example, now school's aren't allowed to call Christmas Christmas, it's "winter holiday festival" or something similar, for fear from the PC crowd that they might offend people of other religions. I don't know anyone from any other faith who would be offended at Christians in a Christian country celebrating Christmas like they always have done. Likewise with Easter... there've been plenty of other instances there too that I can't recall at present. But it always seems to be the non-religious PC bunch who make assumptions that people from other faiths would be offended, when if you actually ask those people they tend to shrug their shoulders and say "I don't care, doesn't bother me, they can do what they like - it's their religion, they can believe what they like, as long as they don't mind me celebrating my own religion too".


I'm an Atheist and I'm rather annoyed by a lot of the holiday PC out there. To me Christmas has no religious connotations except for the etymology, I treat it as a secular winter solstice festival. IMO the use of the terms "The Holidays" and "Christmas" are not incompatible, I use the term "The Holidays" when I'm referring to the period including Hanukkah, Christmas, and New Year's as a whole.


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Griff
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17 Mar 2008, 10:31 am

To me, Christmas has always just been a time for families to gather and sing old folk songs. Christmas carols may have a lot of religious content, but I treat them as cultural, rather than strictly religious.

You know how people say, "Everyone is Irish on Saint Patrick's Day"? I kinda see Christmas in the same light. I don't actually consider it part of MY culture or MY beliefs, but I'm merry with the idea of cooperating with Irish traditions and culture on their special day. By the same token, I'm happy with the idea of playing Christian on the special day we have for them. It's just a nice way to behave toward a group of people when they ask for one day out of the year to openly and ornately celebrate their culture and beliefs. It's tiresome that they do it all month, but I'm not asinine enough to make an issue over it.

However, I'm not going to pry all the Darwin Fish and Bad Religion decals off my car over it because, although I'm cool with being nice and affirming, I'm still who I am.



zen_mistress
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19 Mar 2008, 3:56 am

Thanks for all your replies, guys...

Yes it would have been better if perhaps I had just listened to her and hidden the cross instead of getting upset.

But, really, I dont think like her. I am interested to learn not to offend people in an obvious way, but I dont think the whole world should be constructed around people pretending they believe something else to make others feel comfortable.

Clearly the girl who told me to hide the cross does live her life that way... but it is not ultimately the way I want to live.


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Malachi_Rothschild
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19 Mar 2008, 7:50 am

I'm Jewish and I wouldn't have been offended at all.