The Trinity Doesn't Make Sense!

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the concept of a trinity was around squillions of years before "monotheism" (which is a bit of a misnomer, cos the only christian denomination which doesn't subscribe to a tripartite version of god is the jehovah's witnesses, as far as i'm aware). the triple goddess, in her aspects of maiden, mother and crone goes way, way back.

cooldude76230

It may be that we as HUMANS need to make Jesus, God. It maybe that we need to truly need to believe that Jesus is God for ourselves in this way. As You quoted Colossians 1:14-15 maybe need to take it literally, yes as he is the like image of the invisible God, for he is the firstborn of every creature.

Jesus is our Mediator, for us He mediates between God again for us. That is how God does forgive us for our sins. You just need to read 1st Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" that one God is the Almighty God the Father, Jesus as mediator for mankind, for even Jesus was a man also.

For You even state that: "Jesus did say that the Father was greater than he. You right that is true and should be taken very literally as well as I see it. Jesus did not make himself equal to God the Father. But God the Father did exalt Jesus but only after being found in a fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. as it is written Philippians 2:8. If Jesus was God why in the end would he need to be OBEDIENT unto DEATH because he was not God but the Son of God, the firstborn of every creature, but is not God the Father.

Philippians 2:11 states: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It is God the Father that the Glory goes to in the end, not Jesus the Son of God, but again I state to God the Father.

vetivert

Jehovah's Witnesses are major Christian Group that does not believe in the Trinity, though there are some very small groups that don't either beleive in the Trinity too.

Historic note even the Puritans did not believe in a Trinity either.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:27-29

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

All these quotes are fine but meaningless to the debate about the trinity.

I still challenge anyone come up with a quote of Jesus claiming to be the exclusive son of god

There isn't one.

The christian religion was formed 200 - 300 years after christ (and a lot of trouble it has caused since along with nearly every other religion)

Come on people ~ we are supposed to be logical thinkers.

Where's the facts?

cooldude76230

In the Young's Literal Translation of the Bible it states it this way for:

Isaiah 9:6&7; For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace....To the increase of princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hostsdoth this.

Now back to KJV

Isaiah 11:2; states: And the spirit of the LORD (Jehovah) shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;(Jehovah) I have inserted the Divine Name of God

If You a little lower in John 20 it says this to:

John 20:31: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

if You read a little lower in Hebrews 1 it states:

Hebrews 1:9& 13; Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.....But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

This show me Jesus rule is only Princely, it comes from God Almighty Himself(Jehovah God) He allows Jesus to rule for Us, to be our Mediator for all of mankind. Even Jesus returns his Princely Power, to His God our God His Father and our Father, in 1st Corinthians.

1st Corinthians 15:28 states: And when all things shall be subdued unto him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yea, I get where they're there Kevv
But who put them there, and do I have to buy the argument?
Two questions I'm left pondering.

irishmic

I have some questions.

You see the Trinity as a metaphor: man at one end and God at the other end. The Trinity itself isn't not just about God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and Holy Ghost or Spirit, only. I know You see God as unknowable and unapprochable, but is He if You read the Bible God is not trying to be unknowable or even unapprochable.

How are You using Shekianah. I trying to understand how You are trying to use it.

The First Ecumenical Council: wasn't this council the first steps of setting up the Trinity.

What two questions are You pondering.

I think Lady Elizabeth offers a very good definition.
Hopefully it's even a website that my good Lady Vetivert would approve of.

A much longer and more scholorly article can be found at The Jewish Encyclopedia

A very well written paper on the theological development of the Trinity can be found here. Trinity Doctrine I've only had the time for a cursory examination, but the theology looks correct pretty much throghout.

Two Thoughts.
Why have you still not read more scholory works on the development of the Tinity?
Can man truly encapsulate the infinite god-head in any single or set of definitions.

Hope you have a great day, and read a some good books on the ecumenical councils.

irishmic

I used to have many books on doctrines and dogmas but I did a lot of traveling and lost them sorry to say. I anymore just use the internet and Google. there is so much information out there were to start and to quote.

Even all the books I did read the Trinity has never made any sence to me.

Well Kevv congradulations.
I always admire someone serious enough to take a philosophical interest in what they claim to believe.

The Trinitarian structure actually makes much more sense to me then the creation of a pantheon of demi gods. When dealing with the infinite, it helps the human mind to have more concrete exemplars to use as guideposts. Thus, we find similarities to the trinity position in most faith traditions.

The key to the Trinitarian position is not G-d, or the Holy Ghost, it is Jesus as the man/G-d.

irishmic

Does this mean I win, just joking. OK.

I am afraid that I take to many things I believe maybe to seriously for my own good but that is how I am. maybe it the AS in Me.

God maybe infinite but he is not is not unknowable or unapproachable or even a mystery for he want to be knowable to us, he wants to be approachable to us, he do not want to be mysterious to us. at least that is how I see God.

Yes about 99.99% believe in a Trinity Doctrine and they claim it by making God unknowable, unapproachable, and mysterious, when they really should not. For Faith is more than traditions, it should be a way of living Life.

To me there is only one Almighty and Holy God the Father, Jesus is just the Son of the God Almighty and Holy, the Holy Ghost or Spirit is God's active force to help Us, and glide Us, comfort Us, to educate Us, in the true ways of the Father and of His Son.

That is why I do not believe in the Trinity Doctrine.

Philosophical Interests what are they. Just kidding. OK.

With whats going on elsewhere on this site, I've lost interest in the argument.
There really can be no winners or losers, only varying forms of reference.

I will stand that the infinite can not be known through the finite.
I have no problems seeing mankind as a part of the infinite.
Being a part of the infinite, there has to be a way back to the whole, and a way of viewing the whole.
However, one can not see G-d and live. One must be lifted out of a limited frame of mind, from a limited body. This is no easy task. A few have claimed to have done it, but I don't personally know any of them.

You want to claim that Jesus is the G-d/Man, cool I have no problems with that.
I also have no problems with seeing Krishna as the G-d/Man, or Gautama Buddha as the awakened one.

I have problems with claiming exclusivity to the metaphor.

So lets say that while Trinitarianism posits that Jesus is the G-d/Man. The metaphor inherent in the doctrine can be found in numerous cultures across the globe. Thus, the underlying metaphor has universal meaning and relevance.

irishmic

I was just JOKING about winners or losers. OK.

Yeah what has been going on elsewhere on this site. It is a bit detracting and hard to concentrate on the argument in a manor of speaking.

You are right nobody can see God and live in the state as we humans are today or anytime of humanity has been around. Due to what Adam did in the Garden of Eden.

We though can get to know God in a Spiritual Way nothing in a physical way it is a matter of Faith. Faith gives us knowledge and understanding in what We believe in. Faith is the bases for what we are in Our Lives, for Faith is what we become in the knowledge and understanding of what makes Us, Us. Even Faith is a Way of Living Our Life.

I just see Jesus as the Son of God, not as any God Man. I think mankind can be godly in a Spiritual Way only though. By having Faith in God the Father and His Son.

Maybe Trinitarianism that men have created over the years of mankind and in different religions have come to be into Christianity and its belief in the Trinity itself. I see the Trinity as being borrowed from these religions of the Past. We have made the Trinity as a major Doctrine of the Christian religions of this World. This Trinity Doctrine is not from God himself, it is from what men want to believe to give God meaning in their Lives. If this makes the Trinity a metaphor then they make it a metaphor. But is God a metaphor I say no, those in Christianity should not either too. Remember God does not what to be unknowable or unapproachable, or even a mysterious, to Us and Us to God.

I applaud your beliefs Kevv, and your willingness to explore and question them.
As for what I ultimately believe, I refer you the PM I sent you a couple of weeks ago.

God Bless!

Does Anybody what to Debate the Trinity anymore.