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California overturned gay-marriage ban today!

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skafather84
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19 May 2008, 11:12 pm

Orwell wrote:
I could point you towards Supreme Court cases affirming the Christian nature of this country (including one that ruled it unlawful to establish a school that didn't include Biblical instruction) if you like.




was that before or after this ruling:

"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)]



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19 May 2008, 11:16 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I could point you towards Supreme Court cases affirming the Christian nature of this country (including one that ruled it unlawful to establish a school that didn't include Biblical instruction) if you like.




was that before or after this ruling:

"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)]

Quite a bit before. In the 1830s I believe. A Frenchman willed his large estate to creating a school which would not permit the entrance of any clergy, and they got around this by having lay preachers in the school. The specifics aren't too important though. I was pointing to the fact that America has not historically had as rigid a seclusion of religion to only within the church as many modern secularists like to claim.


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oscuria
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19 May 2008, 11:16 pm

skafather84 wrote:
was that before or after this ruling:

"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)]


That doesn't mean they can't create laws that are religious or influenced by religion.


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skafather84
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19 May 2008, 11:17 pm

Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
their opinion on how religion should help and impact the private citizen had nothing to do with their views on how religion should impact the government and its laws directly. that's more what i was trying to illustrate...that they were secularists with regards to the government...not that they were about abolishing religion or anything like that.

And yet America only had limited religious toleration until fairly recently. I'll concede the point of the Founders if you'll address the rest of my post rather than just the first sentence.



what? that the country's history has sucked and there's been many MANY crimes against humanity and against liberty and freedom committed by our government? of course!

or did you mean that the country was founded on christian principles? because it wasn't...it was founded on secular principles with the understood idea that religion would be the counterbalance to the secular rule of the government.

however, there hasn't been that kind of counterbalance...ever.

the history is filled with a few thousand different ways in which this country is a christian nation but only the founding principles are the true source of its secular origins.



skafather84
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19 May 2008, 11:21 pm

Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I could point you towards Supreme Court cases affirming the Christian nature of this country (including one that ruled it unlawful to establish a school that didn't include Biblical instruction) if you like.




was that before or after this ruling:

"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)]

Quite a bit before. In the 1830s I believe. A Frenchman willed his large estate to creating a school which would not permit the entrance of any clergy, and they got around this by having lay preachers in the school. The specifics aren't too important though. I was pointing to the fact that America has not historically had as rigid a seclusion of religion to only within the church as many modern secularists like to claim.



i'm not saying anything more than the original plans for the country were secular and that's what i respect and draw from as the foremost core of our government.



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20 May 2008, 11:29 am

"Anti-individual" refers here only to the gay individual.



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20 May 2008, 3:58 pm

srriv345 wrote:
The whole "changing marriage" idea is such a red herring.


A red herring -- from what? "Red herrings" have to distract from something.
But the subject of this thread is singular -- namely, addressing the question
of whether or not marriage is changing.
I said that in the opening post, that such was the only question I was asking.
To determine whether or not your car is rolling slowly or standing still,
you look out the window. This thread is only about looking out the window.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 21 May 2008, 9:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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20 May 2008, 4:00 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
And I don't believe in either conservatives or liberals.


Your views are becoming ever more flexible, AG.
Why, just today, you abandoned the distinction between logic and insanity:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Logic, insanity... it's all the same to you.

Logic is merely the apologetics of madness.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 20 May 2008, 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

slowmutant
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20 May 2008, 4:01 pm

I couldn't have put it better myself. Nice metaphor.



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20 May 2008, 4:07 pm

oscuria wrote:
2) This is one of my problems with the government, since it is in charge of acknowledging marriage currently. If they were really honest about it, they'd punish those who broke the legal contract.


It's interesting to me that, as solemnly as marriage vows are taken (ahem, said anyway) in the U.S.,
adultery isn't even on the books as being wrong!
Yet we can be heavily fined for littering, not wearing our seatbelts, or for drinking alcohol when we're 20 years old.
:roll:
It's amazing how many tiny things are both on the books and quite punishable indeed,
while major things like leaving your wife and children for a bimbo are fully allowed (provided you cover them financially),
and hardly even frowned at.
So, married men, if you're tired of your old family, and want a new one, or just even some bimbo,
just save up, pay them off, and off you go!
What a horrible state of affairs! :evil:
(No pun intended.)



Last edited by Ragtime on 20 May 2008, 5:26 pm, edited 7 times in total.

slowmutant
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20 May 2008, 4:11 pm

Adultery may not be a crimimanl offense, but it IS frowned upon by most people, ie. the moral majority.



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20 May 2008, 4:14 pm

Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
The US was founded on Christian principles.



yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity.

Do you have dismissive sarcastic comments for the rest of my points?


You can be assured that he does.
If anything, skafather has dismissive sarcastic comments.


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20 May 2008, 4:24 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Adultery may not be a crimimanl offense, but it IS frowned upon by most people, ie. the moral majority.


I know it is, but to little effect. Sad to say, adultery is nothing less than rampantly occurring,
both in and out of the church.
That has to be admitted if our country is going to make progress toward
promoting stronger individual moral conciences.


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skafather84
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20 May 2008, 4:27 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
The US was founded on Christian principles.



yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity.

Do you have dismissive sarcastic comments for the rest of my points?


You can be assured that he does.
If anything, skafather has dismissive sarcastic comments.



and you can always be counted on for pure stupidity and ignorance...so it works out! i have someone to use my sarcasm on and you have a place to spout off your hateful ignorance.



Ragtime
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20 May 2008, 4:29 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
The US was founded on Christian principles.



yeah because the majority of the deists were heavy into christianity.

Do you have dismissive sarcastic comments for the rest of my points?


You can be assured that he does.
If anything, skafather has dismissive sarcastic comments.



and you can always be counted on for pure stupidity and ignorance...so it works out! i have someone to use my sarcasm on and you have a place to spout off your hateful ignorance.


Oh no, not more false equivalency!

Image

Nice try though.


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20 May 2008, 4:30 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Your views are becoming ever more flexible, AG.
Why, just today, you abandoned the distinction between logic and insanity:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Logic, insanity... it's all the same to you.

Logic is merely the apologetics of madness.

My views? I have been neither a liberal nor a conservative for a few years now. Not only that, but I don't uphold the distinction between logic and insanity to any great extent. Yes, I can accept the existence of a certain processing technique that follows a set of rules, however, as I have stated before, and many times before, the human psyche is driven by deeper set emotions and ultimately objectivity is not something we can attain. Look, if you really look at my views in depth, you will find that I merely say some things to be absurd, I say other things to advance my epistemology, and the actual core beliefs are rather out of the ordinary as well.