Oil prices justified? Yes or No?

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Orwell
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06 Jun 2008, 6:56 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Orwell wrote:

You may mock my beliefs as much as you like. However, I see you are unable to come up with a convincing refutation of them. I tend to argue for libertarianism deontologically though, so if you are interested in utilitarian arguments for it those would probably be better addressed to Awesomelyglorious.

Actually, I argue for libertarianism from more of a deontological standpoint as well, but I engage in utilitarian arguing all of the time.

I just meant that you were probably more competent to answer utilitarian-geared questions about libertarian philosophy. I've only had basic economics, and since I view the world primarily deontologically I tend to botch utilitarian arguments anyways.

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Awesomelyglorious
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06 Jun 2008, 6:57 pm

skafather84 wrote:

and yet whenever rising oil prices are discussed, it's the middle east that is a result of those prices.

Well, to be a cause of higher prices, a potential shock to some portion of the market is all that is necessary. The question of change in price does not require all market power, however, to profitable control the prices, a monopoly would likely be necessary.

skafather84
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06 Jun 2008, 6:58 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

and yet whenever rising oil prices are discussed, it's the middle east that is a result of those prices.

collusion?

Sargon
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06 Jun 2008, 7:07 pm

Quote:

collusion?

Those tend to fail if they occur in companies within a nation in practice and in theory. You are essentially arguing that every nation that produces oil in the entire world is colluding together in secret. I'm not sure how you could see that scenario as being more likely than prices are by and large set by the market. Of course OPEC could try and collude to raise prices, but there are countries outside OPEC that sell oil, so it wouldn't work very well for them (although prices would be higher and even then, they wouldn't be setting the price). Plus OPEC seems to have a hard time controlling production within their own member states (countries like Saudi Arabia ignored a few years back).

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06 Jun 2008, 7:17 pm

The day the twin towers fell I predicted this outcome. We Americans are responsible for this for many reasons; not the least of which is for voting for an idiot for president.

spudnik
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06 Jun 2008, 7:19 pm

aylissa wrote:

The day the twin towers fell I predicted this outcome. We Americans are responsible for this for many reasons; not the least of which is for voting for an idiot for president.

Well I wouldn't blame Americans for getting Bush in the first time, he stole that one

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06 Jun 2008, 7:28 pm

aylissa wrote:

The day the twin towers fell I predicted this outcome. We Americans are responsible for this for many reasons; not the least of which is for voting for an idiot for president.

and welcome: the guilty liberal.

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06 Jun 2008, 7:48 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

...

Fascism are in the eyes of the oppressed, You tyrant.

I find such ideas as freedom and liberty to just be that, ideas.

People are ignorant. They cry about things they do not have, and what they do have they cry about.

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oscuria
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06 Jun 2008, 7:50 pm

skafather84 wrote:

aylissa wrote:

The day the twin towers fell I predicted this outcome. We Americans are responsible for this for many reasons; not the least of which is for voting for an idiot for president.

and welcome: the guilty liberal.

We have shame in our eyes, for we could not have seen this predicament which we threw ourselves in. Blessed be the media that they have given us a new vision. Alas, hope!

Twin towers, you were so arrogant. Standing tall and brought down by worthless beings. We are responsible for your loss.

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06 Jun 2008, 8:11 pm

Quote:

If you want to subjectively define fascism however you want, then it can be "in the eyes of the oppressed". If you want to do that, then its pretty meaningless calling it fascism, it has no value. If we want to go by historic definitions of Fascism (which is probably the correct way), then it can't just be whatever you feel like defining it as (and fascism does have specific traits to it that are definable, just as democracy, monarchy, dictatorships, etc).

Quote:

The day the twin towers fell I predicted this outcome. We Americans are responsible for this for many reasons; not the least of which is for voting for an idiot for president.

The primary reason for high prices in oil isn't terrorism or even Bush for that matter (although Iraq does contribute). Americans, like the rest of the world are responsible for high oil prices by creating demand for oil, but that kinda like saying we are responsible by existing. You could maybe predict higher oil prices because of anticipated instability, but if that was your only explanation for higher prices, then you've failed.

oscuria
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06 Jun 2008, 8:17 pm

Sargon wrote:

...

I hear India and China have a population of over 2 billion people combined. They aren't driving the cost of oil. I don't think.

Stop being a fascist.

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Sargon
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06 Jun 2008, 8:20 pm

Quote:

I hear India and China have a population of over 2 billion people combined. They aren't driving the cost of oil. I don't think.

Stop being a fascist.

I sense sarcasm maybe?

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06 Jun 2008, 8:26 pm

Back on topic: Right now, the poll results are evenly divided. To those who say the price of oil is unjustified, what is your reasoning? What price is a "just price" for oil, and why? What do you think should determine prices, if not the market?

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Awesomelyglorious
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06 Jun 2008, 9:11 pm

oscuria wrote:

Fascism are in the eyes of the oppressed, You tyrant.

Fascism is also a historical program that is particularly noted for its totalitarian element. Between the 2 of us, who really seems to sympathize more with totalitarianism? Me, a libertarian, who belongs to an ideology that is known for its opposition and hatred of fascism, or you, who have expressed multiple times your desire for greater government intervention such as censorship and other things. Calling me a tyrant is like a pot calling the kettle black, or even more like a pot calling the sugar black.

Quote:

I find such ideas as freedom and liberty to just be that, ideas.

Ok. All things we speak of are just that, ideas. Even the positions you put forward, so if nothing we speak of has an immediate objective foundation but is rather a few steps away from that, this does not mean that the concepts are meaningless.

Quote:

People are ignorant. They cry about things they do not have, and what they do have they cry about.

People are people. We are not meant to necessarily be happy or change in our levels of happiness.

oscuria
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06 Jun 2008, 9:28 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

...

You call me a tyrant because I prefer to follow an ideology which in my opinion would serve best society, you instead follow an ideology which you believe gives the people the most "rights" or rather "liberties". However, your idea would leave thousands, even millions homeless because "It's libertarian, as long as you don't revoke their rights, it's fine. They should have worked harder with what has been given to them."

The ideas of freedom and liberty espoused by libertarians are just that, like communism which tries to build up a society based on impracticalities.

Refusing to allow certain publications is hardly tyrannical. After all, we have laws against slander and libel. Such an intolerant society we live in. We can't even speed or not wear seat belts while driving.

Sargon wrote:

I sense sarcasm maybe?

How dare you insult me!!

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06 Jun 2008, 10:05 pm

oscuria wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

...

AG never called you a tyrant... overall, I think Freud was a moron, but I am seeing some projection from you, so maybe he was on to something...

Anyways, you may be promoting the "best" society, but we can't all agree on what that is, so your ideal would be necessarily totalitarian since some would not desire to live in it. BTW, are you socialist? If you're criticizing libertarianism for leaving some people homeless or with other needs unmet, I presume you are advocating government provision of these things, which would be some form of socialism. Not only that, but you are also advocating very strict government control over media outlets, which is a hallmark of totalitarianism... why don't you go to Cuba or China, you might like it there.

Really, whatever system you put in place, somebody gets screwed. I say, as long as its impossible to actually create a society free of all social ills, you may as well advance more freedom.

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