Paganism is our native religion

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That's what the experts say, not me. I'm not in a position to question them.

How far back are we speaking here? 500 years ago? 1000? 2000? 3000??

I wouldn't want to be part of a sacrificial society

I think you are mistaken here. Hinduism, as we know it today, is pretty far off from what the PIE's followed. Classical Greek religion, and the Gods of the Vedas are more exact. Most Hindus today worship Shiva, or Vishnu (Krishna) as the Supreme. This was not the case 3000 years ago.

That's why I said, one shouldn't regress to a form of religion that is more primitive than other, much more advanced spiritual practices available to us. It would be very interesting to know more about the religion practiced in these (European) regions around 800 and I am especially interested in its connections to primitive hinduism (that of the Rg Veda) but it is not something that would fit our modern way of thinking about the world and the universe.



The guru Shiva (the man) was already worshipped about 7000 years ago and the mythical Vishnu even earlier. The gods of the Rg Veda era were worshipped by the aryans of present day Southern Russia and it is that part of Hinduism, the part of primitive animal sacrifices that is closest to the old religions of Europe.
Shiva and later Krishna taught tantra and yoga or introspective spiritual techniques.

Last edited by Daran on 21 Jul 2008, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Unless they have an Aurobindo to interpret them.

Yes, you can always change your interpretation of earlier texts according to later developments. In fact this kind of thinking has been going on in every religion, the view of christians on the old testament is another example. I don't think the ideas of Aurobindo in this respect are very scientific. There are also plenty of hindus who deny that aryans ever entered into India. They say that all of the Vedas originated in India.

Cite it. The earliest "evidence" I am aware of of Shiva is a seal from Mohenjo-daro, which was not an Indo-European civilization (and was definitely not 7000 years old either). My impression of Hinduism is that it is a result of a number of influences, making it about as certainly impure as you can possible get.

Anyway, on topic "Paganism is our native religion", me being primarily of Old European stock, if paganism is at all related to PIE polytheism it is the religion of our invaders!

Shiva is not a Vedic god, neither is Krishna which is not even mentioned once in the Vedas. Shiva absorbed many of the roles/positions that Rudra previously held in the Rg Veda, as well as other devas. The same with Vishnu who is found in the Vedas but by no means was considered the supreme source of all creation. Instead he was just another devata. So, yes, it would be quite misleading to associate Hinduism as being similar to the religion of the P-I-E's. The Vedas and the P-I-E's were very clearly polytheistic. The Vedas have very little to do with Hinduism as it is practiced (aside from the rituals and the mantras). I would even say that the majority of Hindus don't even follow the Vedas. The change to what we consider Hinduism today began with the Upanishads, and to be more exact the Puranas and Itihas which are not even vedic. The latter two written well long after the I-A's settled the Indian subcontinent.

The Vedas, Ancient Greek/Roman, and Iranian mythologies are closer to what the Proto-Indo-Europeans followed.

Did I say that Shiva goes back to Indo-European civilization? Eventhough the Aryans were already arriving in India when Shiva lived, he was himself not an Aryan, nor did he support their way of worshipping.
Your impression is right, but then all religions are a result of "a number of influences", so you might as well say that a "pure religion" is nothing but a human fantasy. The oldest known evidence of Shiva is indeed the one found at Mohenjo-daro, but that doesn't automatically imply that he didn't live thousands of years earlier. The way Shiva seems to have dressed implies he belongs more to stone-age India than to later cultures such as the one in Mohenjo-daro.

The PIE's who invaded India with their early Vedas were polytheistic but the teachings of Shiva and of Krishna are not.
If Paganism means going back to the primitive religion similar to that of the PIE-invaders then I would rather choose for the teachings of Shiva, Krishna or Gautama Buddha. The teachings of the historical Jesus aren't that different by the way eventhough they were hardly preserved.

Actually that seal has yet to be determined to be Shiva. As far as I am aware, the Mohenjo-Daro seals remain undecipherable.

pezar, why do you always tell about the Islam? I'm a SLAV. If you're so expert in religions, go on and tell me about the SLAVIC PAGANISM!
But I guess you'll tell me nothing more than I know.

I see, you're from Maine. My advice is to learn the history of the people who lived in that place about 2500 years ago (at least), then you can try to find the books on their religions. If you know good about your own origin and nationality, if you can find your family tree, then you may try to find the info even in the Internet about that religion.
If you want a short description, I'll quote myself:
"Paganism is the religion of the free, you don't have to believe, but know and understand what your ancestors' blood is speaking to you.
We live in different countries and our Pagan Gods have different names, but the Sun, the Moon, Life, Death, Love and Grief and the same everywhere, and what we can see DOES EXIST REALLY.
You probably believe that the only one highest power exists (I call it Nature, or Chaos or GODS, because this is ONE INDIVISIBLE POWER which has many manifestations). And we are parts of it. And here I completely agree with you.
But as for "making sacrifices to or begging favours from different local gods"... aren't people in a church begging favours from a crusifiied idol much more idol worshippers than the ones turning to the power of their ancestors?
Pagans have idols to embody the Natural powers, and the Sky is embodied as an old man, and Mother Earth - as a woman. We don't worship idols, we worship Nature, unlike you, Christians, who believe that a dead made of wood or of gold (no matter) will heal you or open your mind. And as concerning the term "idol", it should be excluded from all religions (that's MY OWN opinion) and replaced by "symbol", right you said. it's impossible to have no symbol at all, whatever it would be - a cross or the suncircle."
These were parts from my discussions with different peole. but I can't tell you more about Paganism, you have to listen to your heart and blood. Somewhere else was a question about my own definition of Paganism, but I'm lacking time to look for it now. Hoping to read some post from you soon

What about Nihilism?
What is that?
A philoshy or paganism?

Paganism is a group of religions while Nihilism is the anti-religion, the anti-belief. Pagans believe in something while Nihilists make a point of believing in nothing. Why that is I do not know.

BTW Jesus Christ would not have been executed in the electric chair because in the 1st century AD they had yet to discover electricity.

Considering there are Hindu texts describing geological features in India that disappeared 30,000 years ago I'd say that its pretty damn pointless to try and guess how old Hinduism really is.

Also all this talk about indo-european influences and Aryans is just plain uneducated, Dna tests show that the so called Dravidian and Aryan races of India are one and the same and are more closely related to the Chinese than indo-european people. And despite some so called "theory's" there is no proof that the Aryans ever managed to successfully invade India in ancient history as All harrapan ruins show no sign of war. The closest thing to it was the much later Islamic invasion. The small percentage of Indians with indo-european blood are mostly descended from when the British ruled India.