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traveller011212
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20 Jul 2008, 2:06 pm

Daran wrote:
I call it "regress" because I don't believe that making sacrifices to or begging favours from different local gods is a very advanced form of spirituality.

If some higher consciousness is behind us and all of creation, then surely it is one and not a series of gods or natural forces. With all our knowledge of physics, maths and relativity, it seems to me ludicrous to blindly hark back to our world view of 1200 years ago.

Perhaps it is a romantic idea to turn back the clock and kick out christianity but for me paganism is just too, well ehrm, just not adequate for my spiritual needs. Of course I respect those who do make that choice, but sticking to the religious beliefs of your distant ancestors should not become a dogma, or you might as well stay christian.


'Regression'... personally I believe that any religion that forces other religions to capitulate to their own is more regressed than peaceful ones.

What knowledge points to any belief system other than agnosticism?



Chaotica
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20 Jul 2008, 4:00 pm

greenblue wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Tensho wrote:
Paganism is like feminism right?


They have a lot in common, I think.

I'm curious, what do they have in common?

The thought of God not being a He, perhaps?


+1 :) If people have been created according to God's image and likeness, then who is God - a man or a woman, or both together? By the way, if a man was the first to be created "according to God's image and likeness", then why he needed a woman? I've never heard that Christian God ever needed the Goddess :o



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20 Jul 2008, 4:08 pm

traveller011212 wrote:
What knowledge points to any belief system other than agnosticism?


Perhaps not exactly belief systems but more ways of life. The knowledge that has come from the science of introspection has brought us many meditation systems such as found in buddhism, yoga and tantra. These can be combined with many life styles or even with religions. They are beyond believing or not believing because they are based on practical experience (of the mind), so I wouldn't call them agnosticism nor indeed would I call these religion. Perhaps they can however be called types of mysticism.

Or would you call such practices native paganism, when slightly adjusted to our culture?



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20 Jul 2008, 4:16 pm

Daran wrote:
I call it "regress" because I don't believe that making sacrifices to or begging favours from different local gods is a very advanced form of spirituality.

If some higher consciousness is behind us and all of creation, then surely it is one and not a series of gods or natural forces. With all our knowledge of physics, maths and relativity, it seems to me ludicrous to blindly hark back to our world view of 1200 years ago.

Perhaps it is a romantic idea to turn back the clock and kick out christianity but for me paganism is just too, well ehrm, just not adequate for my spiritual needs. Of course I respect those who do make that choice, but sticking to the religious beliefs of your distant ancestors should not become a dogma, or you might as well stay christian.


You probably believe that the only one highest power exists (I call it Nature, or Chaos or GODS, because this is ONE INDIVISIBLE POWER which has many manifestations). And we are parts of it. And here I completely agree with you.
But as for "making sacrifices to or begging favours from different local gods"... aren't people in a church begging favours from a crusifiied idol much more idol worshippers than the ones turning to the power of their ancestors?
P.S. I've never been a Christian.



Chaotica
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20 Jul 2008, 4:26 pm

Daran wrote:

Or would you call such practices native paganism, when slightly adjusted to our culture?


What about Buddha? He was their teacher, and no religion has any influence on Buddhism, whatever you call it: science or mysticism.

To traveller011212: "What knowledge points to any belief system other than agnosticism?" - I guess we won't learn it before we die.



Chaotica
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20 Jul 2008, 4:27 pm

traveller011212 wrote:
'Regression'... personally I believe that any religion that forces other religions to capitulate to their own is more regressed than peaceful ones.


+1 :)



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20 Jul 2008, 4:32 pm

Chaotica wrote:
You probably believe that the only one highest power exists (I call it Nature, or Chaos or GODS, because this is ONE INDIVISIBLE POWER which has many manifestations). And we are parts of it. And here I completely agree with you.
But as for "making sacrifices to or begging favours from different local gods"... aren't people in a church begging favours from a crusifiied idol much more idol worshippers than the ones turning to the power of their ancestors?
P.S. I've never been a Christian.


Perhaps people in church are doing the same, I am not defending the practices of christianity as you may have noticed. :wink: I have never been a christian either. But I respect the few historical teachings of Jesus that have survived the many redactions that resulted in the new testament.



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20 Jul 2008, 4:53 pm

I really enjoyed this discussion! :D



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20 Jul 2008, 8:56 pm

Pagans have idols. It is hypocritical of them to accuse us of being idol-worshippers. What is an "idol" exactly, then? What is the difference between an idol and a symbol? As a Christian I believe we have many symbols, but we are forbidden to worship graven images. A symbol of our faith such as the crucifix, I think, can be easily misunderstood as an idol.



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20 Jul 2008, 9:23 pm

I would like to add to discussion that 'paganism' is an umbrella term, that at its broadest means any non-Abrahamic religion. I, for one, am pagan, but also an atheist. By knowing that I am a pagan, one has basically no idea what that actually entails, as it is such a broad term. I'd be happy to discuss my personal spirituality though.

Also, feminism is the radical idea that men and women should be/are equals. That is all feminism is. Men can be feminists. Feminism = equality of the sexes.

For reference, I was raised Christian. My mother and aunt are teaching me the ways of our ancestors. I also have a talent for it myself. Working the magic, I mean.



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20 Jul 2008, 10:06 pm

Paganism is relative. Most of what we know as "paganism" is actually Druidism and its offshoots and interpretations. Druidism is the ancestral religion of the Celts, whose origins are unknown. Celts are largely Irish, with some Scottish left over. The English are actually Germanic Saxons, and by the time they got to Britannia they had been Christianized. Germans worshipped oak trees mainly, which is similar to Druidism, but the two religions are different, although it's conceivable that the Germans and the Celts had pre-Roman contacts.

Russian religions I don't know much about. All I know is that wolf gods were quite common among the Slavics. Arab paganism can only be guessed at, since Muhammad ordered the pagans to convert or die and their records destroyed. The Yezidis of Iraq are an Arab Pagan remnant, and they worship a peacock god. I do know that many Slavic peoples found Christianity a bitter pill to swallow, and pockets of pagan resistance were extant as late as the 12th century Christian reckoning. The Scandinavians also had a difficult time with Christianity, and the Vikings used a pantheon similar to the Greco-Roman pantheon.

Not much in the way of real paganism survived Christianity's rampage across Europe during the Dark Ages; the Church ordered pagan resisters destroyed. Heck, they even wiped out competing Christianities-look up the Nag Hammadi Gospels on Wiki. The closest thing to the original religion of the Proto-Indo-European people is likely Hinduism, albeit greatly modified. I myself tend towards Buddhism, modified to my personal liking. I grew up a Mormon, which is the ultimate in phony religion. The only difference between Mormonism and Scientology is that Mormons have been around longer, the Mormons don't have a pay for revelation scale, and Joseph Smith wasn't stark raving bonkers like L. Ron Hubbard. Smith was a sociopath, but he wasn't full bore loony. Hubbard was wacko.

Most Americans have so many ethnicities and races in them that a real "blood-religion" is pretty much beside the point. I've met a Wiccan who was of Mexican ancestry, for example. Mexico has plenty of indigenous religions, mainly derived from African beliefs mixed with Christianity and a bit of Aztec, but she chose Celtic religion. Go figure. I am 1/8 Jewish but don't feel particularly tied to Judaism, which puts me in good company with most American Jews, since the passionate ones all moved to Israel. American Judaism is more about a social and business network than religious belief, for the most part. My maternal grandparents were atheists. I was too for a while. I also have Czech and German and Celt-pretty typical. A lot of Americans have Slavic ancestry from Industrial Age migrations.

America is a great religious festival-people can pretty much choose what they want. In times of turmoil, all sorts of cults pop up. In the 1970s there were UFO/extraterrestrial and comet cults, including Scientology. In the 19th century there were cults centered around sexual experimentation, from abstinence (Shakers) to Mormon polygamy to the "complex marriage" (a form of free love) practiced at Oneida. The modern day American "swinger" lifestyle is similar to Oneidan complex marriage, but swingers don't share a religion. New Age is a grab bag of beliefs rooted in the hippie era, most of which by now exist to fleece the gullible.

Lately Buddhism has shown a surge in interest in America. Neo-Celtic beliefs are also popular-Druidism, Wicca, free floating paganism. Christianity is actually losing. Islam is not really popular here due to bigotry, and much of Islam's growth elsewhere is rooted in increased fertility rates for Muslim women. Weirdly, economic turmoil tends not to produce much in the way of cults here-the Great Depression resulted in a big surge in mainline Protestantism, not in cult activity, and industrialism resulted in a surge in communistic beliefs and a concurrent popularity of Marx-mandated atheism.

The 1980s had a big dose of televangelism and TV based faith healing, with leaders bragging about their lavish lifestyles. It wasn't known as the Decade of Greed here for nothing. Typical of Americans, they decided to worship money in the 1980s in lieu of anything else. The 1990s saw political cult activity centered around an extreme interpretation of the nation's founding documents, mainly the Bill of Rights. The recent presidential candidate Ron Paul who got press around the world but not here is a follower.



Malsane
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20 Jul 2008, 11:22 pm

I wouldn't go so far as to say Christianity is losing. Evangelical/Fundamentalist churches seem to be thriving. It's also probably a regional thing. In Iowa, it's Christian or bust.



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21 Jul 2008, 4:27 am

Malsane wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say Christianity is losing. Evangelical/Fundamentalist churches seem to be thriving. It's also probably a regional thing. In Iowa, it's Christian or bust.


This is what is happening to Christianity percentage-wise here in the Netherlands:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godsdiensten_in_Nederland

Poll year..Christians...Others

1830......98.1%.........1.9%
1880......97.7%.........2.3%
1890......95.9%.........4.1%
1910......91.5%.........8.5%
1920......89.5%........10.5%
1930......82.8%........17.2%
1947......80.9%........19.1%
1960......81.4%........18.6%
1971......75.7%........24.3%
1975......71.0%........29.0%
1980......69.0%........31.0%
1985......64.0%........36.0%
1990......57.0%........43.0%
1995......52.0%........48.0%
2000......51.0%........49.0%
2005......49.0%........51.0%
2007......47.0%........53.0%



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21 Jul 2008, 11:20 am

slowmutant wrote:
Pagans have idols. It is hypocritical of them to accuse us of being idol-worshippers. What is an "idol" exactly, then? What is the difference between an idol and a symbol? As a Christian I believe we have many symbols, but we are forbidden to worship graven images. A symbol of our faith such as the crucifix, I think, can be easily misunderstood as an idol.


Pagans have idols to embody the Natural powers, and the Sky is embodied as an old man, and Mother Earth - as a woman. We don't worship idols, we worship Nature, unlike you, Christians, who believe that a dead made of wood or of gold (no matter) will heal you or open your mind. And as concerning the term "idol", it should be excluded from all religions (that's MY OWN opinion) and replaced by "symbol", right you said. it's impossible to have no symbol at all, whatever it would be - a cross or the suncircle.
And what if Jesus woudn't had been crucified but murdered another way (decapitation or by electric chair) - what would you wear on your neck? 8O



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21 Jul 2008, 11:25 am

Daran wrote:
This is what is happening to Christianity percentage-wise here in the Netherlands:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godsdiensten_in_Nederland

Poll year..Christians...Others

1830......98.1%.........1.9%
1880......97.7%.........2.3%
1890......95.9%.........4.1%
1910......91.5%.........8.5%
1920......89.5%........10.5%
1930......82.8%........17.2%
1947......80.9%........19.1%
1960......81.4%........18.6%
1971......75.7%........24.3%
1975......71.0%........29.0%
1980......69.0%........31.0%
1985......64.0%........36.0%
1990......57.0%........43.0%
1995......52.0%........48.0%
2000......51.0%........49.0%
2005......49.0%........51.0%
2007......47.0%........53.0%


Impressing statistics! :P



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21 Jul 2008, 12:30 pm

Chaotica wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Pagans have idols. It is hypocritical of them to accuse us of being idol-worshippers. What is an "idol" exactly, then? What is the difference between an idol and a symbol? As a Christian I believe we have many symbols, but we are forbidden to worship graven images. A symbol of our faith such as the crucifix, I think, can be easily misunderstood as an idol.


Pagans have idols to embody the Natural powers, and the Sky is embodied as an old man, and Mother Earth - as a woman. We don't worship idols, we worship Nature, unlike you, Christians, who believe that a dead made of wood or of gold (no matter) will heal you or open your mind. And as concerning the term "idol", it should be excluded from all religions (that's MY OWN opinion) and replaced by "symbol", right you said. it's impossible to have no symbol at all, whatever it would be - a cross or the suncircle.
And what if Jesus woudn't had been crucified but murdered another way (decapitation or by electric chair) - what would you wear on your neck? 8O


This is a semantic argument. Idol, symbol, embodiment, etc.