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Old Stone Age Culture Has Been Discovered in China

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SkinnedWolf
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20 Mar 2022, 5:47 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Interesting conversation you two are having. :)

WP has members from around the world, but Skinned Wolf is the first person I am aware of who is from mainland China. The tiny population country of Finland has had several high profile members, but China (with one fourth of the world population) has had practically no members that I have noticed in my ten plus years here.

And apparently Wolf isnt even a mainstream Han Chinese, but of a minority group.

Which minority are you - if you dont mind me asking?


Tujia. We are over nine million people.
My ethnicity used to have some characteristics, but now we are no different from the Han people. Only in the case of identity registration, other people will notice.
Because of this status, I got a little extra points in the college entrance examination, and schools in ethnic areas will teach us a little special dance. Nothing but that. :P


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The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Mar 2022, 3:43 pm

SkinnedWolf is a rare specimen in WP…. like me and magz.



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20 Mar 2022, 8:10 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Chinese government has been banning teaching of the "out of Africa theory"

They actually have a name for their own version called "Out of Asia" theory, So any prehistoric bones or tools found in archaeological sites are whisked away and paraded around to support their pet theories.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2659506


The Out-Of-Asia theory had at one time been the standard theory of human evolution in higher education everywhere, till fossils of far older human ancestors had been discovered in Africa by Leaky.


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SkinnedWolf
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20 Mar 2022, 9:30 pm

Yes, I just went through the papers on the origin of humans in the Chinese archives.
The 21st century treatises basically introduce the myths and legends of various nations.
The oldest ones, papers from the 1950s, introduced African apes. Then they discuss evolution, which represents materialism, and creationism, which represents idealism. Or discuss "labor creates human beings" in communist theory. This batch of papers is more like an ideological statement than natural science or history. This kind of paper was the mainstream until the reform and opening up.

Among the papers that really discuss the place of human origin: a 1964 review presents the excavations of fossils around the world at that time, as well as several popular theories (none of which claim Asia is the only origin). The 1982 review presented a large number of new fossil discoveries reported in Japan and the United States, as well as renewed debate over the place of origin. The authors of the latter review have published three identical papers describing this debate and the potential of Asian origins. A 1990 review advocated the multiple origin theory.

It is worth noting that:
1. Except for the fossil itself, the arguments of the above paper are entirely derived from Western or Indonesian research. It seems that China did not host relevant scientific research activities at that time, only doing reviews.
2. I found these from three hundred treatises on communist philosophy or religious mythology. Now my computer is full of ancient academic junk. Obviously, the Chinese academic community is not very interested in the specific location where human beings originated.

It seems that there are traces of the claims of Asian origins in history, but China is not the promoter.


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SkinnedWolf
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20 Mar 2022, 10:27 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
SkinnedWolf is a rare specimen in WP…. like me and magz.


Specimen？Hope this wolf has another skin. 8O


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naturalplastic
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21 Mar 2022, 1:35 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Chinese government has been banning teaching of the "out of Africa theory"

They actually have a name for their own version called "Out of Asia" theory, So any prehistoric bones or tools found in archaeological sites are whisked away and paraded around to support their pet theories.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2659506


The Out-Of-Asia theory had at one time been the standard theory of human evolution in higher education everywhere, till fossils of far older human ancestors had been discovered in Africa by Leaky.


In all fairness it was indeed White Europeans and Americans who first peddled the idea that humans came from Asia (specifically northerly non tropical Asia). Asia is not as a good a place of origin of mankind as Europe for a Western imperialist. But its the next best thing. At about the same time as the Piltdown Man was hoaxed in England, in the 1920s, the American Museum of Natural History in New York launched expeditions to find fossils of the earliest humans in outer mongolia. They found huge quantities of great dinosaur fossils. But nothing related to the origin of man.

Oddly enough it was Charles Darwin himself who presaged the modern Out-of-Africa hypothesis when he observed that the "two closest cousins of mankind are the gorilla and the chimp. Both live in Africa. So humans probably first evolved in Africa". But his hypothesis was largely ignored for a 100 years -until they started finding the remains of Australopithecus in southeast Africa in the Fifties.

For most of its existence the Peoples Republic of China was a poor third world country with little involvement in academic research- like looking for fossils (human or otherwise). Practical stuff about survival, combined with Marxist ideology was all that their education system was concerned with. But NOW China is entering the big league of rich powerful countries. And there is some evidence that the regime is a bit- less than objective- in its approach to science these days. But we shall see.



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21 Mar 2022, 1:41 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
SkinnedWolf is a rare specimen in WP…. like me and magz.


Specimen？Hope this wolf has another skin. 8O


A "specimen" is a "scientific sample of something". Like a butterfly you might add to your butterfly collection.
Nothing derogatory or bad.

Boo was not alluding to "specimen jars" (that they make you urinate into in the hospital) if thats what you thought. :lol:



Kraichgauer
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21 Mar 2022, 2:20 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Chinese government has been banning teaching of the "out of Africa theory"

They actually have a name for their own version called "Out of Asia" theory, So any prehistoric bones or tools found in archaeological sites are whisked away and paraded around to support their pet theories.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2659506


The Out-Of-Asia theory had at one time been the standard theory of human evolution in higher education everywhere, till fossils of far older human ancestors had been discovered in Africa by Leaky.


In all fairness it was indeed White Europeans and Americans who first peddled the idea that humans came from Asia (specifically northerly non tropical Asia). Asia is not as a good a place of origin of mankind as Europe for a Western imperialist. But its the next best thing. At about the same time as the Piltdown Man was hoaxed in England, in the 1920s, the American Museum of Natural History in New York launched expeditions to find fossils of the earliest humans in outer mongolia. They found huge quantities of great dinosaur fossils. But nothing related to the origin of man.

Oddly enough it was Charles Darwin himself who presaged the modern Out-of-Africa hypothesis when he observed that the "two closest cousins of mankind are the gorilla and the chimp. Both live in Africa. So humans probably first evolved in Africa". But his hypothesis was largely ignored for a 100 years -until they started finding the remains of Australopithecus in southeast Africa in the Fifties.

For most of its existence the Peoples Republic of China was a poor third world country with little involvement in academic research- like looking for fossils (human or otherwise). Practical stuff about survival, combined with Marxist ideology was all that their education system was concerned with. But NOW China is entering the big league of rich powerful countries. And there is some evidence that the regime is a bit- less than objective- in its approach to science these days. But we shall see.


Indeed.
Also, the Piltdown hoax had arisen at the time of great national rivalries in Europe. Germany had Neanderthal Man, and France had Cro-Magnon man, and so the British public and academics were eager to have a prehistoric predecessor who had chosen to make Britain his home.


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cyberdad
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21 Mar 2022, 4:45 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Yes, I just went through the papers on the origin of humans in the Chinese archives.
The 21st century treatises basically introduce the myths and legends of various nations.
The oldest ones, papers from the 1950s, introduced African apes. Then they discuss evolution, which represents materialism, and creationism, which represents idealism. Or discuss "labor creates human beings" in communist theory. This batch of papers is more like an ideological statement than natural science or history. This kind of paper was the mainstream until the reform and opening up.

Among the papers that really discuss the place of human origin: a 1964 review presents the excavations of fossils around the world at that time, as well as several popular theories (none of which claim Asia is the only origin). The 1982 review presented a large number of new fossil discoveries reported in Japan and the United States, as well as renewed debate over the place of origin. The authors of the latter review have published three identical papers describing this debate and the potential of Asian origins. A 1990 review advocated the multiple origin theory.

It is worth noting that:
1. Except for the fossil itself, the arguments of the above paper are entirely derived from Western or Indonesian research. It seems that China did not host relevant scientific research activities at that time, only doing reviews.
2. I found these from three hundred treatises on communist philosophy or religious mythology. Now my computer is full of ancient academic junk. Obviously, the Chinese academic community is not very interested in the specific location where human beings originated.

It seems that there are traces of the claims of Asian origins in history, but China is not the promoter.


Skinned wolf, is this type of peer reviewed research based on genetics permitted to be circulated in China?
https://www.science.org/content/article ... ca-origins

It comprehensively demonstrates the east asian Y chromosome passed in men have genetic markers suggesting relatively recent African ancestors.

What is scary is as the research improves, the actual arrival of the so called "chosen peoples" in Europe and east Asia out of Africa is getting shorter and shorter,.

I imagine bones can be made to fit any narrative but genes do not lie.



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21 Mar 2022, 4:48 am

It amuses me to watch right wing podcasters try to poke holes in Cheddar man, This is how the original ancestors of Britain looked like

Image
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... is-reveals



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21 Mar 2022, 6:50 am

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
Yes, I just went through the papers on the origin of humans in the Chinese archives.
The 21st century treatises basically introduce the myths and legends of various nations.
The oldest ones, papers from the 1950s, introduced African apes. Then they discuss evolution, which represents materialism, and creationism, which represents idealism. Or discuss "labor creates human beings" in communist theory. This batch of papers is more like an ideological statement than natural science or history. This kind of paper was the mainstream until the reform and opening up.

Among the papers that really discuss the place of human origin: a 1964 review presents the excavations of fossils around the world at that time, as well as several popular theories (none of which claim Asia is the only origin). The 1982 review presented a large number of new fossil discoveries reported in Japan and the United States, as well as renewed debate over the place of origin. The authors of the latter review have published three identical papers describing this debate and the potential of Asian origins. A 1990 review advocated the multiple origin theory.

It is worth noting that:
1. Except for the fossil itself, the arguments of the above paper are entirely derived from Western or Indonesian research. It seems that China did not host relevant scientific research activities at that time, only doing reviews.
2. I found these from three hundred treatises on communist philosophy or religious mythology. Now my computer is full of ancient academic junk. Obviously, the Chinese academic community is not very interested in the specific location where human beings originated.

It seems that there are traces of the claims of Asian origins in history, but China is not the promoter.


Skinned wolf, is this type of peer reviewed research based on genetics permitted to be circulated in China?
https://www.science.org/content/article ... ca-origins

I imagine bones can be made to fit any narrative but genes do not lie.


"to be circulated in China" is an expression that leaves me unsure of its meaning.

The current fact is：
1. The Chinese literature database will provide search results of a small number of English literatures. There is literature on genetic evidence of African origins.
2. The Science and Technology Daily of the Chinese Literature Library introduced that genomic research was used to improve the theory of going out of Africa.
3. Chinese users have always been free to access foreign document libraries.

Is there a special publicity for everyone to know about this? very few.
Forbid someone to know? no.


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With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Show Spoiler
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


cyberdad
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21 Mar 2022, 3:54 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
"to be circulated in China" is an expression that leaves me unsure of its meaning.

The current fact is：
1. The Chinese literature database will provide search results of a small number of English literatures. There is literature on genetic evidence of African origins.
2. The Science and Technology Daily of the Chinese Literature Library introduced that genomic research was used to improve the theory of going out of Africa.
3. Chinese users have always been free to access foreign document libraries.

Is there a special publicity for everyone to know about this? very few.
Forbid someone to know? no.


I work with international students from the PRC. Some of them have been unable to fly to Australia. I notice they are very restricted in the type of internet platforms they can use. Also that internet in China is filtered through servers that screen communication. (I should point out China is not the only country to do this, many other countries in the region also "spy" on it's citizens.)

But it seems like western research is freely available which is good news.

Back to the topic. I used to attend seminars on prehistoric archaeology and here in the west the subject is highly politicised as well. There is a tendency toward eurocentric theories when it comes to archaeology and there is something called "history wars" over the origin of literally everything,

Another example is the mummies found in western China who show "European" phenotype. Once upon a time western China was occupied by non-Chinese peoples so it is only relatively recently (within the last 2000 years) that the Han encroached into these regions. Conversely India pretends that there is only one type of people (Aryans) ignoring the fact the south of India and east are completely different. North eastern Indians are infact culturally connected to Tibetans not India. South Indians do not feel connected at all to the rest of India.



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21 Mar 2022, 4:43 pm

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
"to be circulated in China" is an expression that leaves me unsure of its meaning.

The current fact is：
1. The Chinese literature database will provide search results of a small number of English literatures. There is literature on genetic evidence of African origins.
2. The Science and Technology Daily of the Chinese Literature Library introduced that genomic research was used to improve the theory of going out of Africa.
3. Chinese users have always been free to access foreign document libraries.

Is there a special publicity for everyone to know about this? very few.
Forbid someone to know? no.


I work with international students from the PRC. Some of them have been unable to fly to Australia. I notice they are very restricted in the type of internet platforms they can use. Also that internet in China is filtered through servers that screen communication. (I should point out China is not the only country to do this, many other countries in the region also "spy" on it's citizens.)

But it seems like western research is freely available which is good news.

Back to the topic. I used to attend seminars on prehistoric archaeology and here in the west the subject is highly politicised as well. There is a tendency toward eurocentric theories when it comes to archaeology and there is something called "history wars" over the origin of literally everything,

Another example is the mummies found in western China who show "European" phenotype. Once upon a time western China was occupied by non-Chinese peoples so it is only relatively recently (within the last 2000 years) that the Han encroached into these regions. Conversely India pretends that there is only one type of people (Aryans) ignoring the fact the south of India and east are completely different. North eastern Indians are infact culturally connected to Tibetans not India. South Indians do not feel connected at all to the rest of India.


Filtering focuses on media and social platforms that may have political propaganda, as well as pornographic content. Research sites and niche sites (such as WP) will not be blocked. Otherwise, academic research will encounter many difficulties.

The situation in China and India may not be the same.
Today's Uyghurs obviously have a lot of white characteristics. And China's history education will introduce how the Chinese nation expands and assimilates its neighboring nations step by step. It seems that the Han's ability to assimilate to other ethnic groups is an honor.
Knowing how a nation joins China is not a taboo. In India it is the opposite. Indian racial policy is more complex and I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate. This should be related to their religion.
So India and China will take different strategies on this issue.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
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21 Mar 2022, 4:47 pm

This is one of the most fascinating discussions on WP!
I’m learning a lot!


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21 Mar 2022, 4:49 pm

Just because a person happens to have a "European" phenotype-----doesn't mean that they were somehow "advanced."

The first civilizations emerged, according to most extant research, in the continent of Asia, though over a rather wide area.

It is frequently stated that "Indo-European" people emerged in the Caucasus, and just east of Asia Minor----and that they migrated both east and west over a very great area. These people, by and large, with a few exceptions, were not as "civilized" as, say, the people in Mesopotamia or Egypt. As far as I know, the only Indo-European language spoken in Asia Minor and the Fertile Crescent was Hittite.



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21 Mar 2022, 5:04 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Just because a person happens to have a "European" phenotype-----doesn't mean that they were somehow "advanced."

The first civilizations emerged, according to most extant research, in the continent of Asia, though over a rather wide area.

It is frequently stated that "Indo-European" people emerged in the Caucasus, and just east of Asia Minor----and that they migrated both east and west over a very great area. These people, by and large, with a few exceptions, were not as "civilized" as, say, the people in Mesopotamia or Egypt. As far as I know, the only Indo-European language spoken in Asia Minor and the Fertile Crescent was Hittite.


Philistine in the Levant can probably be added to that list, as they had apparently emerged from Bronze Age Greece and adjacent areas.


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