Transgender buyer's remorse, aka "detransitioning"

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Since we've gone down this path, why don't we ask women how they feel about the essence of womanhood being reduced down to hair, makeup, lingerie and a pair of boobs. Does that make a woman?

Ironically perhaps, I do have concerns about the parents who allow their children to get gages and tattoos.

As for other forms of self mutilation - the cutting behaviors often stop concurrent with the hormone therapy…..

what happened to people before sex change became possible?

Interesting you should ask that. Because archaeologists are always digging up ancient skeletons who were buried as men but were physically women, or vice versa.

There is a very famous Viking warrior that they always assumed to be male due to the burial situation, the grave goods etc. Now with more advanced DNA testing, they discovered she was a woman but she obviously lived as a man.

There was another one, buried as a female healer, but the DNA tests revealed he was actually a biological male.

I suspect that for much of history, if you said you were a man, acted as a man and lived as a man, people treated you as a man and assumed you were a man. Same with women.

There is a modern day porn star called Buck Angel, he is a very interesting character if you want to look him up. He was born physically female and kept his genitalia, but his outward appearance is very masculine and he lives as a man.

^^^with that in mind, it eases my worries that there was a lot of suffering back then due to inability to be who one really was.

It seems like you think that's what makes a woman, based on this reply.
A person can have female-looking hair with or without the surgery.
(They can grow their hair, get it coloured, get a wig, etc.)
They can shave or permanently remove their facial hair with electrolysis.
They can wear makeup when presenting as male or female.
Anyone can wear lingerie.
Boobs: Let's be honest, some men have them anyway.
If they don't, they can wear fake ones.

Many women are flat-chested, or have mastectomies.
Boobs don't make a woman.

What then, makes a woman?
What do you think they might be trying to achieve?
It's far more than hair, lingerie, makeup, and boobs.

My exbf wears women's lingerie and makeup, paints his nails, and even has fake boobs.
He looks somewhat silly tbh because he didn't start doing this until his 50s.
No one takes him seriously because he's a big tough guy who looks like a biker.
He's felt female since the day he was born.
He identifies as female, but respects that most people will never see him that way.

If he had hormone treated around the time of puberty things may have been different for him.

Quantum Duck brought up the topic of suicide.
Many teens and youths (or even older adults) choose this route from having to repress their true gender.
I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone.

My cousin's child transitioned surgically two years ago, in their 30s.
It's a miracle they're still alive after being shunned by most of the family (Christian missionaries).
They suffered tremendously from psychological and mental abuse all those years.

Mmhmm, self-mutilation just like circumcision is?

Surely you must protest against people who have their baby boys circumcised for religious, hygiene, or aesthetic reasons, right?

And also against those who have a cleft palate surgically corrected? And anyone else born with anything wrong/lacking that’s corrected via surgical means?

I agree. It's quite sad to see people who have detransitioned use their experience to advocate for limiting access to transgender healthcare; it's like someone getting covered in tattoos, then later advocating for tattoos to be banned (or heavily restricted) because they regretted their decision. Transgender people are a small minority as it is, we shouldn't let an even smaller minority forbid them from becoming their true self.

Also my husband gets the BBC History Magazine every month. There was an article in it about homosexuality, transgender issues etc. in historical times. The main message was, people in history would have wondered what 21st century humans were getting in a tizzy about. I think people just got on with their very hard, very short lives and didn't have all the leisure time we have to wonder about what genitalia people have.

Most people in history were struggling to survive, and there weren't very many humans around so they weren't going to question their friends or helpers, because they needed to co-operate to survive dangers. If any one of us was in danger of dying, we wouldn't question the status of someone coming to save us, would we?

I think it was only if there was a very obvious case which affected the public, that it became a problem. I know people were put to death for being gay but I wonder if transgender people just went unnoticed.

There is also this interesting case of a highwayman who wrote his confession before being hanged and it shows quite an enlightened perspective. I wonder if this was common. Obviously 1750 is modern history, I don't know if there are any accounts like this from medieval or before then.

Highwayman's 1750 confessions reveal ‘unusual’ ambivalence about gay sex
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/13/highwaymans-1750-confessions-reveal-unusual-ambivalence-about-gay-sex

Also, as you can imagine, Vikings were very homophobic, however even they had soothsayers/ medicine women who were actually men. They were called Seiðr. And they also had a saying 'men become more gay as they get older.' Which means once the men had done their duty of producing lots of children, they could be in a relationship with whoever they liked.

Could some Viking warriors have been trans men, book asks?
https://www.reuters.com/article/history-lgbt-vikings-idUSL8N2FJ3L6

---

Here IS A Short Answer And A Longer Answer too;

Yawn, An Exception Does Not Make A Rule;

As Already Mentioned in 'This Thread,' Transgender

Folks are A Very Tiny Minority Yet a Real Minority in the

World Who Are Marginalized Now Yet Celebrated As Holy

And Divine In More Nature Based Cultures That Act 'Human'

More Than 'The Tools' They Create;

Indeed, Celebrated As Non-Binary

And Two Spirited Folks Often Softer

In Competition For Reproduction in

Assistance of Others or Noble Warriors
in Battles of Folks With Vagina's Who Act

More 'Masculine' Than Most Dudes in 'the Tribe' Do...

i Have a Young Nephew who Insists on Wearing His Cousin's
Pearl Necklace With Pearl Stones; He does Rough And Tumble
Play too Holding HiS Own; He And Or She Or Whatever He

Eventually Chooses to Identify or Not With
Could Surely Be a Child

Model If His Parents

Were the 'Hollywood

Type' Yet No They

Are 'Backwoods' Folks

As Tough As Nails as

'Rednecks' Still Come and Go;

Like Last Night as me and my Wife

Were Complimenting the Walmart Manager

On Their Very Best Greeter At the Door Who We

(It's Impossible to Tell What Kind of Sexual Organs
'They' Have By Outward Appearance;' LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE

OTHER THAN JUST A FRIGGING WILD ASS GUESS)

Will Tell Wouldn't Hurt A Fly Yet Spreads Smiles All

Night Long

With A Spirit

Lighter than

Any Androgynous

Female With A Beard

on A Cross Named So-called

'Jesus' of Course Reflecting the

Androgynous Appearance of A Dude

With Long Hair Eccentric in the Renaissance

of Leonardo DaVinci With Beard Then too As Hey

That's One Way to Live

Eternally Paint

Jesus as 'You'
Hehe in A Last
Supper To Spread
in Art Around the World

As A 'Little Brown Man' Becomes Androgynous

More Northern European With A Beard And Long

Hair; Even Written in the So-Called Bible By So Called
Saul the Saint Paul as A Disgrace to Men Like Being

Unmarried
Then for Real

As No One Would

Have Given A Dude
Like That Even the 'Time
of Day' On a Cross For Being

A Total Disgrace of A Dude With
Long Hair With No 'Cattle' to Breed Little ones AS Such...

The Ignorance is Palpable As Ignorance Will Breed indeed...

And of Course

'Popable' Too As

The Priest Skips Along
in His and Or Her Pink
Robe This 'Time of Year'

And Makes Homophobic

Jokes too Doth Protesting too Much

As Even Among Studies in the Catholic

Church, SHoW UP to 58 Percent of Priests are
Assessed With Homosexual Orientations As Such;

Guess What, Nature Doesn't Do Only Black and White;

Nature Is Not Formed By Humans in Only Squares and

Only Straight Roads; Particularly Around Mountains

And Rivers That Only Spiral As Trees And Rivers Spread

iN Waves FRiEnDS With Gravity

As the Chaos of

Stars Placed Above

Actually Brings A Most
Beautiful Spiraling Galaxy

of Just Another Nautilus Shell
Created Above So Below Within Inside
Outside And All Around As Spiraling

Sub Particles WHere The 'Dark Place' Below

Within Blankets All Matter Above So Below Distant

As Stars

Together

Free Just to Be

As Chaos Makes the Most
Beautiful Art Whether Male
And Or Female too Indeed to Play...

This is Just Another 'Dog Whistle' of Ignorance Indeed...

Or Perhaps We Should Recognize Science on the Issue

With A Little Help From A Quote Long Enough for Someone

To Read Who
Actually Has
Background in Human Biology For Real:

"BIOLOGICAL SEX: HOW YOU GET IT

Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.

Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY.

A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.*

Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.

And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change.

There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior.

THE BRAIN: WHERE STUFF GETS “MADE UP”

When the biology gets too complicated, some point to differences between brains of males and females as proof of the sexual binary. But a half century of empirical research has repeatedly challenged the idea that brain biology is simply XY = male brain or XX = female brain. In other words, there is no such thing as “the male brain” or “the female brain.” This is not to say that there are no observable differences. Certain brain characteristics can be sexually dimorphic: observable average differences across males and females. But like biological sex, pointing to “brain sex” as the explanation for these differences is wrong and hinders scientific research.

Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.

It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.

THE BODY AND THE BRAIN AND THE HORMONES BETWIXT

As if the brain and body weren’t complicated enough, another biological factor influences the expression of biological sex in an individual: hormones. Anyone who has gone through puberty has felt the power of hormones firsthand. But like all things biology, hormones cannot be limited to the pubescent idea of “estrogen = female and testosterone = male.”

For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.

Environmental, social and behavioral factors also influence hormones in both males and females, complicating the idea that hormones determine sex. Progesterone changes in response to typically male-coded social situations that involve dominance and competition. Estrogen, typically linked to feminine-coded behavior, also plays a role in masculine-coded dominance/power social scenarios. Though testosterone levels are different between males and females on average, many external factors can change these levels, such as whether or not a person is raising a child. Differing testosterone levels in both men and women can predict certain parenting behaviors. Even the content of a sexual fantasy can change testosterone levels. The fact is, behavior and environment—like cultural gender norms and expectations—influence sex-related hormones, and the biology of the body and brain itself.

SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: BETTER TOGETHER

While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real. It is time that we acknowledge this. Defining a person’s sex identity using decontextualized “facts” is unscientific and dehumanizing. The trans experience provides essential insights into the science of sex and scientifically demonstrates that uncommon and atypical phenomena are vital for a successful living system. Even the scientific endeavor itself is quantifiably better when it is more inclusive and diverse. So, no matter what a pundit, politician or internet troll may say, trans people are an indispensable part of our living reality.

Transgender humans represent the complexity and diversity that are fundamental features of life, evolution and nature itself. That is a fact."

Other than that Have A Nice

Day; The World Is 'Colorful;'

The Illusion is it's Only 'Black
And White' And Only 'Male and Female' AS Such;


It's Like me at the Military Gym, Trying to Convince
The Ignorant So-Called Elite Military Dudes at 62 Years of Age that

GREaTesT Strength Doesn't Come From Force As i Gracefully Do a Tai-Chi-Like
Ballet-Like Martial-Arts; Yes, Free Style Dance Casually Loading Up 30-45 Pound

Plates on a Leg Pressing Machine Where That and the Sled that Lifts the Weight

At 103 Pounds Adds Up to 1453 Pounds As Yeah i've Actually Done As Much As

1593 Pounds as i Always Low Balled
The Weight of the Sled at 30 Pounds

As Recently Someone Showed me the
Specs of the Leg Pressing Machine to tell

me Hey Fred You Actually Leg Press More than You Say;

And Yes '1340 Pounds' Plus 73 Pounds For 1413 Pounds is Actually Shared
On YouTube Slowly Leg Pressing That Weight at 45 Degrees Just Warming
Up 12 Reps With a Deep Resounding Mantra Roaring All 100 Seconds For Real...

i Won't Bore Ya More With That;

The Point is, When Dudes Try to

Be All So Called Masculine in Macho Force,

They Lose the Divine Feminine 'Wu Wei' 'Way of Water;'

FRiEnDS With Gravity That Overcome Mountains

High Yet Flows

With Least

Resistance

in Lowest Valleys Actually Highest

In Potential Existence Changing Reality on Earth;

Like The Transgender Human at the Entrance Door of Walmart

Spreading the Grace of Love That as Science Shows Actually

Lifts Humanity up

More in Cooperation

That Foolish Forceful

Competition Ever Will;

'Way of Water;' God Yes

Way of Divine 'Wu Wei'

Feminine Grace Gently
Loving All Of Nature Real'

And Nah, True, After i Load
Up all that Weight And Leg
Press it in Total Balance FRiEnDS

(With Greatest Grace in Peace Loving What i Do)

With Gravity no one Questions The 'Strength of Water...'

True i Still Do 'PG Nude Art' (Michelangelo Style in the Flesh
At Age 62]; How Many Dudes Do That At My Age Along With Leg Pressing
The Weight of A Small Car; Yep only 'Water' For Real Me Hehe; No Fiction or Myth...

i Basically

Started Out
As A Weed;Yep

More of A GRoWeR
Than A SHoWeR FLoWeRinG at

Birth When i Was Confused

For A Female Baby With Smiling
Eyes and Open Arms For Everyone

Like When the McDonald's Cashier

Mistook me That way at age 12 as

The Frigging Onward Christian Soldier

Marching Boys So-Called Like in Leonardo
DaVinci And 'Real Jesus' Days Spit on Boys

With Long
Hair Who
Even Dared
to Smile Either

In Middle School
Halls or the City
Park Just Playing
Tennis in Zen Tao Flow
Backboard Ball and Racquet

me One Grace in Peace

Loving All THere is
in the Only Present

Then Now

too

JusT

Solo
ALL
One With
All Nature

JusT
Minding

my Own
SouL iN FLoW
HeaveN ON EartH Autotelic
in Joy of Bliss New Now Then

And Now of A Wonderful Balance

Present of Divine Masculine and

Feminine For Real; No Different Really

Than Our Nephew Playing Rough And
Tumble With Faux Pearl Necklace And Pink Stone

Around His Neck From His

Little Cousin Friend

As He Braided Her

Hair on the First Baptist

Backwoods Family Farm Dinner Just Last Sunday...

i Don't Really Appreciate the Ignorance Yet

i Don't 'Mind' Providing the Science And Art
That Irrefutably Proves the Ignorance Incorrect...

Transgender Folks Are Some of the Most Beautiful

Souls Walking the Earth; SaMe As Other Marginalized

Folks; Particularly The Spectrum of Autistic Folks Who

Have Super Charged

Empathy in Feelings
And Senses

Emotions in

Synergy For

All of Nature; Yes,

Even For The Ignorance

That Breeds Harm Still;

Yep, Sympathy for 'DevilS' in 'Adversary'

Way for Real too; God Yes This Is ReaLiTY

For In This World Of CuLTuRaL Ignorance; Yes, too

Angel Wings May Eventually Fall and Rise Again For Real...

Just Because one Person or Another or So Has Buyer's
Remorse For Buying A Car
Or Whatever

Doesn't

Mean the Buy
is Essentially Incorrect
For All of the Similar Model and Makes of AutoMobile;

That's And This Is Just Frigging Common Sense/Feel;

Exceptions
Do Not Make
The Rule Either
Way; And Of Course

Humans Are Humans;

They are Going to Make

Decisions they Regret as Sure
As Planets Revolve Around

Stars and

Eventually

Fall too Like
Star DusT iN Return,
ReturninG AS Human
Star Flowers And Seeds Still
Of Colors Beyond What Colors
Blind Folks Can and Will Sadly Be

Able to see still...

As YeS iGNoRaNCE
Obviously Cannot See...

Until Ignorance Does LEarn to See...

It Require Effort And A Little Research Perhaps For Real...

Farther than What We See Just in Twitter Size Rooms of Souls...

Non-Binary Folks Are Not as Rare on the Autism Spectrum And

Sadly Many

Folks Male
And or Female

Do Not Find

The Gifts of the
Other So-Called

Genders to Truly
Survive And Thrive
in All Human Potentials

That Will Arise Through
Overcoming Struggle of
Scarcity And Struggle of

Abundance

of Instant
Gratification
in Ignorance oF LiGHT As
Well Existence is Barely

A Science Project At
Essence And Mostly

An Art Project When
Illusions of BLacK And White

Life Are Transformed into Colors of ReaLiTy More...

If Ya Don't Seek and Find to LearN More PaSS on
Through it's
What Humans

"Normally'

Do too of
Course As
ReaLiTY SMiles
And Bites True

iN Both
LiGHT And DarK..

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

---

Some tribal cultures took gender ambiguity into account. The Plains Indians, like the Lakota, were a fierce warrior culture, but a boy had the option of becoming a berdache (beer-dock)...a person who takes on the dress and role of a woman.

I don't feel like anything, really. When I was younger I think I affected a more 'girly' persona, in hindsight I think I was trying things on for size. But, mostly I was a tomboy. I hardly think of it. I buy things to wear that fit my body. My body has changed with time and my clothing has taken on more of a generic, economical purpose. Very little to do with projecting an image.
I see to it that I'm clean, that's about all I can say for myself. Nothing to write home about, just a body.
I don't really get what all the fuss is about, but that's just me. I sometimes fell like I don't live in my body. I live in my mind.

I have never understood why gender identity was so important to ppl.
I had a friend who became a trans woman and I think I insulted her deeply when I said this to her.
Go figure. <shrug>

Same...

Circumcision shouldn't be a fashion statement or something to make doctors a bit more money, IMO.