Texas jury rules - it's OK to kill escorts and prostitutes

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Is it the right of someone to gun down an escort who refuses sex?
Yes 10%  10%  [ 4 ]
No 90%  90%  [ 38 ]
Total votes : 42

Kraichgauer
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10 Jun 2013, 2:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Will anyone else admit the fact that the criminal case is closed, and that civil damages may be all that's left to resolve?

Unless someone else takes the law into his or her own hands, that is essentially all that remains.

Right now, Texans have the opportunity to have the laws changed to please the bleeding-heart liberals from other states and countries who are wetting themselves over this whole issue; but I tell you this: There is not a metaphorical "snowball's chance in Hell" that the law will ever be changed to please them, so why don't they stop their finger-pointing and work to solve the problems of prostitution, theft, murder and other illegal activities in their own neighborhoods?

:roll: ... because it's easier for them to point out the motes in other people's eyes than it is to remove the boulders from their own.


Because those of us who live in states where someone can't get away with murder for $150.00 have the right to moral outrage.Here in Spokane, Wa., there's a similar case where a man is being tried for manslaughter for shooting someone for attempting to steal his pickup. I don't expect the jury to throw him a parade, or give him a medal.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Is there a link to donate to his legal defense fund?


Ha-ha.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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10 Jun 2013, 2:46 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Will anyone else admit the fact that the criminal case is closed, and that civil damages may be all that's left to resolve?

Unless someone else takes the law into his or her own hands, that is essentially all that remains.

Right now, Texans have the opportunity to have the laws changed to please the bleeding-heart liberals from other states and countries who are wetting themselves over this whole issue; but I tell you this: There is not a metaphorical "snowball's chance in Hell" that the law will ever be changed to please them, so why don't they stop their finger-pointing and work to solve the problems of prostitution, theft, murder and other illegal activities in their own neighborhoods?

:roll: ... because it's easier for them to point out the motes in other people's eyes than it is to remove the boulders from their own.


Because those of us who live in states where someone can't get away with murder for $150.00 have the right to moral outrage.Here in Spokane, Wa., there's a similar case where a man is being tried for manslaughter for shooting someone for attempting to steal his pickup. I don't expect the jury to throw him a parade, or give him a medal.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Is there a link to donate to his legal defense fund?


Ha-ha.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm serious. Is there such a link?



Ann2011
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10 Jun 2013, 2:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Will anyone else admit the fact that the criminal case is closed, and that civil damages may be all that's left to resolve?

Unless someone else takes the law into his or her own hands, that is essentially all that remains.

Right now, Texans have the opportunity to have the laws changed to please the bleeding-heart liberals from other states and countries who are wetting themselves over this whole issue; but I tell you this: There is not a metaphorical "snowball's chance in Hell" that the law will ever be changed to please them, so why don't they stop their finger-pointing and work to solve the problems of prostitution, theft, murder and other illegal activities in their own neighborhoods?

:roll: ... because it's easier for them to point out the motes in other people's eyes than it is to remove the boulders from their own.


Because those of us who live in states where someone can't get away with murder for $150.00 have the right to moral outrage.Here in Spokane, Wa., there's a similar case where a man is being tried for manslaughter for shooting someone for attempting to steal his pickup. I don't expect the jury to throw him a parade, or give him a medal.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Is there a link to donate to his legal defense fund?


Ha-ha.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm serious. Is there such a link?

I thought you felt one should stay out of the business of other states.



Kraichgauer
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10 Jun 2013, 3:17 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Will anyone else admit the fact that the criminal case is closed, and that civil damages may be all that's left to resolve?

Unless someone else takes the law into his or her own hands, that is essentially all that remains.

Right now, Texans have the opportunity to have the laws changed to please the bleeding-heart liberals from other states and countries who are wetting themselves over this whole issue; but I tell you this: There is not a metaphorical "snowball's chance in Hell" that the law will ever be changed to please them, so why don't they stop their finger-pointing and work to solve the problems of prostitution, theft, murder and other illegal activities in their own neighborhoods?

:roll: ... because it's easier for them to point out the motes in other people's eyes than it is to remove the boulders from their own.


Because those of us who live in states where someone can't get away with murder for $150.00 have the right to moral outrage.Here in Spokane, Wa., there's a similar case where a man is being tried for manslaughter for shooting someone for attempting to steal his pickup. I don't expect the jury to throw him a parade, or give him a medal.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Is there a link to donate to his legal defense fund?


Ha-ha.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm serious. Is there such a link?

I thought you felt one should stay out of the business of other states.


Hey, that's right! But in answer to your question - I have no idea.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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10 Jun 2013, 3:38 pm

"Self defense" is legally held to certain standards in court (not that I know about this court in particular) and isn't some cheap excuse to go as apeshit as you please. Besides the fact that force has to be proportionate to the threat, the other person has to pose an "imminent threat" to even justify using force to begin with. And even then, you must stop using force the moment the person is no longer an imminent threat or it goes from self-defense to assault.

What exactly is an "imminent threat"? It means that person takes a course of action which puts you in immediate danger. This doesn't merely mean feeling threatened.

So let's say some loony is waving a knife at you from across the room and yelling at you. He might make you feel threatened right off the bat, but he isn't deemed an imminent threat until he takes a course of action like charging at you or throwing the knife towards your direction. You can't shoot or hit the guy until he makes a move that puts you in immediate danger.

Now I wanna explain proportionate use of force. Let's say some as*hole tries to strong arm you with a sucker punch and you start hitting him back. The moment this person is either laying helplessly on the ground or runs away, this person is no longer an imminent threat and if you continue to hit this person, it goes from self-defense to assault. So this means if he hits you, takes your property, and runs you are no longer justified using force the moment he runs.

It isn't that cut and dried in practice however. It depends on the court, legal precedents, who has the better lawyer, etc. etc. What will get you acquitted in one court can get you convicted in another. Now, I haven't completely read through the Texas Gun Laws link but for the most part it seems consistent with where I'm going with the imminent threat concept. Looks like the jury f****d up and got chumped by the defense but I don't wanna jump to conclusions. Although some of the conditions under deadly force to protect property under (2) and (3) are questionable in this case, it could possibly be justified in not just the eyes of the jury but the eyes of the law.

Where's visagrunt by the way? I could use some of his expertise here. My head hurts and it doesn't help at all when I have to cut through the extra layer of crap from the biases of both the article and the OP. Why don't you try letting people sort the facts out for themselves for once instead of trying to shove your views down our throats?

PS: Self-defense and stand your ground gun laws are two different things. I'm mostly elaborating on general self-defense and I don't know exactly how it all extends to Texas' stand your ground laws. And for the record I'm not trying to sort out whether or not it's justified in my eyes, but in the eyes of Texas law. I personally think this is murder.



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10 Jun 2013, 3:59 pm

According to that law, one can gun down someone spraypainting an underpass at night and claim the spraypainting at night as being a defence. Also, murders over property? It's one thing to use deadly force in a robbery where the other side threatens one life, but say you gun down a pickpocket who is unarmed? You are killing over a wallet! Human life is so very cheap in Texas.



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10 Jun 2013, 4:00 pm

Fnord wrote:
Both the Associated Press and the Huffington Post have a slightly different take. Gilbert paid the woman $150 to have sex; then she refused, and further refused to return the money. Instead, she gave the cash to her driver. Gilbert's actions were justified because he was trying to retrieve stolen property and the driver was part of the theft scheme. 12 men and women confirmed this reasoning, and acquitted him of the charges.

It may have helped his case that the woman died 7 months after he shot her for stealing his money and not for refusing sex.


No sex was promised. In fact, her boss FORBADE her to have sex with the client, says she would have been sacked for that.



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10 Jun 2013, 4:07 pm

xenon13 wrote:
According to that law, one can gun down someone spraypainting an underpass at night and claim the spraypainting at night as being a defence. Also, murders over property? It's one thing to use deadly force in a robbery where the other side threatens one life, but say you gun down a pickpocket who is unarmed? You are killing over a wallet! Human life is so very cheap in Texas.
Show me what part of the Texas gun laws allow you to shoot somebody to protect public property. I haven't completely sorted out the parts pertaining to private property, but unlike you I don't jump to conclusions and get caught up in hysterics to advance an agenda. Can somebody please help me determine whether it's the jury or the law that is the problem?

btw, I just stumbled across this article. Thank you for wasting my time responding to some biased BS. I should've known better than to completely break my balls trying to explain the concept of self defense. Turns out it has nothing to do with whether or not shooting is justified against fraud but with whether or not mens rea could be established to make the murder charge stick:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/ ... -have-sex/
Quote:
A misreading of the verdict in a strange and upsetting Texas case has gone viral, since Gawker claimed: “Texas Says It’s OK to Shoot an Escort If She Won’t Have Sex With You.” Texas law does not say that, and the jury didn’t say that either. Pushing the idea that an “Insane Texas Law Made it Legal for a Man to Kill a Prostitute” is irresponsible; it misinforms the public and sends a terrible message to violent misogynists.

It is not in dispute that the defendant, Ezekiel Gilbert, paid the victim, Lenora Frago, $150 for 30 minutes of escort services advertised on Craigslist. After Frago refused to have sex with him, the defendant shot her. Frago was paralyzed and the defendant was charged with aggravated assault. When she died seven months later Gilbert was indicted for murder instead.

At trial, defense attorneys made the shocking argument that Gilbert was justified in shooting Frago because she had stolen from him and Texas law permits the use of deadly force to defend one’s property at night. That a defense was raised in this case based on Texas’ awful defense of property law is certainly newsworthy and even more reason to reform that law. But there is no evidence that the jury acquitted based on the defense of property law in the first place.

The much more plausible reason for the verdict is that the jury believed the defendant’s claim that he didn’t intend to shoot the victim. Per Texas’ homicide statute, the prosecution needed to prove that Gilbert “intentionally or knowingly” killed Frago or intended to cause her “serious bodily injury.” The defense argued that Gilbert lacked the requisite intent for murder because when he shot at the car as Frago and the owner of the escort service drove away, he was aiming for the tire. The bullet hit the tire and a fragment, “literally the size of your fingernail,” according to Defense Attorney Bobby Barrera, hit Frago. Barrera does not believe the jury acquitted because of the defense of property law. He believes they acquitted because they believed Gilbert didn’t mean to shoot her.

Unless someone has interviewed a juror or can read minds, they cannot claim the jury agreed the killing was justified. And the juries do not “cite” laws. They find facts and decide “guilty” or “not guilty.” And it isn’t accurate to call Frago a “prostitute.” Witnesses for the prosecution testified she was an escort who never agreed to have sex. Rather than siding with the killer’s characterization, writers should at least say “alleged.”

One would expect the jury to find that shooting at a car with an AK-47 is at least “reckless,” in which case he could have been convicted of manslaughter. But the prosecution didn’t charge him with manslaughter, only murder. Manslaughter is a “lesser included offense” of murder and the judge is entitled to instruct the jury if the evidence supports that charge, but it appears she did not. The jury can’t convict on a charge that isn’t before them.

I think Texas’s defense of property law is abhorrent and my gut reaction was that it was a reprehensible defense. This reaction suggests, that you should think twice before hiring me as your defense attorney, sadly. As Professor Michael W. Martin of Fordham Law’s Federal Litigation Clinic reminded me: “If the law allows the defense, the lawyer must use it, if it is viable, unless there is a good strategic reason not to. Otherwise, it is ineffective assistance of counsel. If the lawyer feels like he is ethically barred from using a legal, viable defense, he should ask to be relieved.”

This story looks very different depending on whether you are looking at the law or at the reporting. Remember reporting? People used to get paid to go find facts and tell the public about them. That happens a lot less now. With many commentators and too few reporters, an alarmist story can have a long life in the echo chamber. But there are still some reporters, and a number of them, though probably stretched pretty thin, have engaged in that old-fashioned practice of going to court, making phone calls, interviewing people and checking facts for this very case. The San Antonio Express did not just start covering this case last week, that’s where to start if you want to follow this story as it develops.

This is a terrible story, a woman was killed and no one is going to prison. It is reasonable to be suspicious that prejudice based on her gender, race, or occupation led to that injustice. But all we know thus far is that the defendant received due process and a zealous defense. We don’t know that Texas’s terrible defense of property law had anything to do with him getting off. The vilification of this jury isn’t justified—we should give them the benefit of the doubt that they spent those 11 hours deliberating in good faith and did what they thought the law required. And in our concern for women and victims of violence, we must remember that even admitted killers still have rights.
I know they charged him specifically with murder, but doesn't the judge have the power to reduce the charge rather than throw the case out altogether? And IIRC in the states you are automatically charged with 1st degree murder during the commission of a felony for any death that results from it. So if the act of even putting people in the line of fire is reckless endangerment, wouldn't that mean any death resulting from it is automatically 1st degree murder or would the charges also have to include reckless endangerment for it to stick? I'd like to hear what any law expert here has to say.



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10 Jun 2013, 4:53 pm

^

Ahh, prosecutorial overreach strikes again! Sounds like negligent homicide or manslaughter would have easily stuck, but they had to overcharge him and lost big.

I predict a similar result in the George Zimmerman case in Florida, for the same reason.


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Last edited by Dox47 on 10 Jun 2013, 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Jun 2013, 6:58 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Is there a link to donate to his legal defense fund? ... I'm serious. Is there such a link?
I thought you felt one should stay out of the business of other states.

The business of other states, yes. The legal issues of other people who are being shafted for defending themselves against crime, no.

I'd be willing to bet that if a woman was being prosecuted for murder because she shot a man for trying to rape her, you folks would be on the other side of the issue, and demanding her immediate acquittal.

It all depends on who is seen as the "weaker" victim, doesn't it?



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10 Jun 2013, 8:01 pm

If someone is in my yard with a gas can and threatens to set fire to my house I can legally shoot them in Arkansas.If my life and property are in danger I can use deadly force,but I wouldn't shoot someone over chump change.But I might get even,my ex had someone steal a lawnmower,he went to their house and stole it back. :lol:


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10 Jun 2013, 9:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Is there a link to donate to his legal defense fund? ... I'm serious. Is there such a link?
I thought you felt one should stay out of the business of other states.

The business of other states, yes. The legal issues of other people who are being shafted for defending themselves against crime, no.

I'd be willing to bet that if a woman was being prosecuted for murder because she shot a man for trying to rape her, you folks would be on the other side of the issue, and demanding her immediate acquittal.

It all depends on who is seen as the "weaker" victim, doesn't it?


Absolutely we'd be defending her - she would actually be in physical danger. There's a huge difference between some guy who gets refused sex for $150.00, and shoots the victim, and a woman being raped.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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10 Jun 2013, 10:56 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
I know they charged him specifically with murder, but doesn't the judge have the power to reduce the charge rather than throw the case out altogether?


The judge does not have the authority to bring charges himself, that is what the prosecutor's office is for. Remember, he's more of a ref than anything, he's not supposed to be interested in whether there is a conviction or an acquittal. Think of it this way, wouldn't you consider it quite irregular if the judge were to coach a defendant on how to avoid conviction by suggesting which laws and statutes to invoke?

AceOfSpades wrote:
And IIRC in the states you are automatically charged with 1st degree murder during the commission of a felony for any death that results from it. So if the act of even putting people in the line of fire is reckless endangerment, wouldn't that mean any death resulting from it is automatically 1st degree murder or would the charges also have to include reckless endangerment for it to stick? I'd like to hear what any law expert here has to say.


That's called the felony-murder doctrine, and it varies by state. Here's how Wki explains it:

Quote:
Under state of mind (iv), the felony-murder doctrine, the felony committed must be an inherently dangerous felony, such as burglary, arson, rape, robbery or kidnapping. Importantly, the underlying felony cannot be a lesser included offense such as assault, otherwise all criminal homicides would be murder as all are felonies.


Therefore, a crime of negligence would not allow the felony-murder statute to be invoked.

IMHO, this legal outcome probably occurred because the man refused a plea deal and the prosecutors retaliated by levying the harshest charges they could against him, regardless of appropriateness to the crime, and they came up short. This is called "the tax", and is an abomination to American jurisprudence.


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11 Jun 2013, 3:03 am

Fnord wrote:
Will anyone else admit the fact that the criminal case is closed, and that civil damages may be all that's left to resolve?

Unless someone else takes the law into his or her own hands, that is essentially all that remains.

Right now, Texans have the opportunity to have the laws changed to please the bleeding-heart liberals from other states and countries who are wetting themselves over this whole issue; but I tell you this: There is not a metaphorical "snowball's chance in Hell" that the law will ever be changed to please them, so why don't they stop their finger-pointing and work to solve the problems of prostitution, theft, murder and other illegal activities in their own neighborhoods?

:roll: ... because it's easier for them to point out the motes in other people's eyes than it is to remove the boulders from their own.


Because we already have done so, so we legalized prostitution, made it a normal business with normal contracts and agreements, so there is no need to play sherrif by own laws in a lawless space. As every business-contract, that has not been fulfilled by one side, you simply can call the police and have an official bill, including taxes, as proof. Its not about fingerpointing. Its simply about being shocked, that a woman had to die, and that a family lost a member, because of such a complete stupid nonsense. Its simply sad. and its also making someone afraid, because if other people can die and get shot only because of such a meaningless nonsense, then these can happen to everyone else as well. I wouldnt want to get myself or a relative or a friend shot because of stupid nonsense, so I am interested in laws that protect the people I love to get shot because of nonsense.



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11 Jun 2013, 4:13 am

Fnord wrote:
redrobin62 wrote:
I found the Criminal Code in Texas Gun Laws section here: Subchapter D, Section 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property...

Very good! Everything all laid out, nice and neat.

Now, if the woman had died immediately, then the prosecution might have won its case; but since it took her 7 months to die there is reasonable doubt that the gunshot led directly to her death. It could have been inadequate hospital care, improper medication, or some other unrelated event that actually killed her.

"Reasonable Doubt" is all that it takes for an acquittal.


Actually, if her death was in any way related to being shot, then charges for murder could have been justifiable. In this case, though, he was defending himself from being the victim of a theft and the law specifically recognizes the right of self defense.



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11 Jun 2013, 4:14 am

ruveyn wrote:
The man could have recovered his money by mean other than deadly force. He could have informed the police that the prostitute absconded with the money he paid her for the service he did not received.

Which means deadly force was not the only means of recovery so he was not justified in shooting the prostitute.

ruveyn


Unless you have a great deal of political pull in the town, the police are hardly likely to lift a finger to help you recover the money.

I've known people who lost thousands to things like forgeries and the police only wished they would stop complaining so that they could safely ignore it.