Israel severs ties with UN Human Rights Council
John_Browning
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29 Mar 2012, 8:52 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I don't blame Israel for getting out of the UNHRC or anything else U.N.
Their location in the world, the middle east if you haven't noticed, isn't real big on human rights in the first place. If they have to take the gloves off to deal with the people that would exterminate them all at the first opportunity then so be it.
You do what you have to do, plain and simple.
If I had it my way the U.S. would be out of the U.N. and the U.N. would be out of the U.S.
Their location in the world, the middle east if you haven't noticed, isn't real big on human rights in the first place. If they have to take the gloves off to deal with the people that would exterminate them all at the first opportunity then so be it.
You do what you have to do, plain and simple.
If I had it my way the U.S. would be out of the U.N. and the U.N. would be out of the U.S.
Well crap they better exterminate all the non-jews as a preventative measure, then again that might make them look like nazis which would be ironic.
If they pose an immediate threat to Israel then IDF obviously has to do whatever to assure the
safety and survival of its citizens WITHOUT outside interference.
So you think if they want to start a holocaust against arabs they should have that right, if they deem it an appropriate way to prevent the destruction of their nation? At that point their nation might as well be destroyed because genocide is wrong. I mean I can see why people don't like the nation of Israel and its got nothing to do with it being a largely jewish nation try the way it operates...maybe.
Israel is not center the whole world revolves around....but sometimes it seems people view it that way.
First off, The IDF and Israeli leadership would not launch a full scale genocidal campaign against the "Arabs" which is a pretty general unspecifed group considering their are nations that surround Israel that are made up of Arabs but they aren't united.
Well I know that I was being hypothetical, and even if that did happen I don't imagine it would go on very long...before that nation gets well....destroyed.
Second, Yes..the reason Israel is hated by a lot of regimes is precisely because it is a Jewish nation...i don't understand why some people can't grasp the concept that anti-semitism did not die when Hitler killed himself in his bunker. It still persists as an idealogy in the third world and has been ingrained in post-colonial education systems because they see Zionism as an arm of " Jewish" financial interests meant to keep them in perpetual slavery...this was indoctrinated into their education systems in the third world due to their alignment with the Soviet Union. As someone who has gone to Israel numerous times I can say their is not one ounce of rational discussion within the Knesset or in normal political dialogue of eliminating Arabs. But sadly many of the regimes that surround Israel are made up of regimes that use the elimination of Israel as a means of legitimacy for their rule.
Also I am aware anti-semitism does still exist.......hell considering how many people in the U.S think a terrorist is anyone who looks middle eastern is rather anti-semitic considering the following dictionary definition.
Sem·ite noun
Definition of Semite
1
a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
b : a descendant of these peoples
2
: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
but anyways anti-semitism is not the only reason people dislike Israel......I dislike it because of the things I've read up on about it and the ongoing palistinian/israeli conflict. But I think it's stupid to hate people for their race and it seems both sides are guilty of that more or less.
Anti-semitism may technically include Arabs but its pretty common and was originally intended as a term to mean Judeao-phobia. But thats besides the point.
I know, I just find it ironic that more or less in Israel and Palestine its jews vs. arabs or vice versa, even though they're both semetic.
People who " dislike" Israel rarely every " dislike" the existense of other countries, and that is at the heart of the argument. You may disagree with the tactics used by the govt. but their are individuals, groups, and even political parties in countries that just HATE Israels very existence and utilize the fact its Jewish as a means of degrading it.
Ok well I just don't like how it seems to fall under the theocracy category.......why should there be christian nations, jewish nations, muslim nations or any other nations I mean why even bring up the religion thing in the first place. Not to mention I don't even like the system in my own country so why would I like the systems in the countries in the middle east.......from what I hear they are more oppressive, including in Israel as far as I know(but I'll have to review some of their laws and such).
Israel is not a theocracy. a Theocracy is a gov't that is ruled by religious priests and all aspects of the state are geared toward the promotion of their God and religion. Israel is a Republic. A Jewish theocracy existed 2000 years ago in Judaea, when the Temple stood and the High Priest was often times the King himself. Today, Israel has a body called the Knesset which is democratically elected from all aspects of Israeli society. A Prime minister is elected from that as well. Also, being Jewish is not just a religious category but also an Ethnic one. Its pretty commonly known that being a Jew is defined differently than a Christian or a Muslim in the sense of what defines one as a Jew. Alot of that definition was internally defined by Jews themselves and surrounding nations which isolated Jews for 2000 years.
Also I think the formation of the modern Israel was just a little messed up, I mean France, England and the U.S(I think it was, maybe just England and the U.S) but anyways they did not exactly have the right transport a bunch of people to another country and declare it their nation regardless of who's already there.......and I would say the same thing even if the people who where relocated there where not Jewish . Seems kinda negligent on the part of the allies who won WW2 I mean no crap that was probably going to create violent conflict.
Your history is way off here...Israel did not just suddenly pop up in 1948 out of thin air. The foundations of the state were being built up from the 1880s onwards. I highly recommend you pick up a History of Israel book to get an indepth knowledge of it. England, France, and the U.S did not just transport people to Israel, thats not how refugees got there. Their was also NO nation that existed on that land prior to 1948. It was a part of the British Mandate which previously was under the Ottoman Empires control. I can't discuss this with you if you don't have the history of the country correct, because you understandly don't have the knowledge on this topic, which is not a put down. Like I said, i suggest researching for a good indepth historical study of Israel....Benny Morris is good.
Kind of like when the natives tried defending their land against the european settlers who decided to make america their own? though theres not an ongoing violent conflict really there are still hard feelings I am sure.
The muslim nations are ran by religious priests? maybe you and I have a different idea of what a theocracy is than....also I was simplifying the history I know Israel did not just suddenly pop up in 1948. I know its more complex then that but I still disagree with the way it was done...it seems like it should have been obvious to the allies why it might have lead to some on-going conflict in the area.
No, I never said that muslim nations are a theocracy. Their are certain Muslim countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia which are theocracies but not all of them. Tunisia and Libya are now transitional republics in name. Morocco is a Monarchy. Bahrain and Qatar are Monarchies I believe. Theocracy actually has a solid definition, as a form of Govt. The Allies in 1948 didn't create Israel. The Jews in the British Mandate decided to declare for statehood. The US, Britain, and France had nothing at all to do with the desire for Israel to exist, and i think the issue was permantly settled with the Partition vote in 1947 which succeeded. But one party would not have it, the Arab League, and their supporters ( Egypt, Syria, Jordan) in the Muslim world who decided to declare war. Its not Israels fault it won the war and acquired more territory as a result.
I consider muslim nations theocracies, considering how much of a role religion plays in their government and laws...maybe Israel is not as much of a theorcracy but what is the point in anyone referring to it as a Jewish Nation if its not a theocracy at all. Or maybe people inaccurately describe it that way.
Also I did not say they did create Israel, but if I am not mistaking they did play a role in the formation of modern day Israel...I guess I'd have to go back and look into all the specifics to remember exactly how the whole thing happened. Also fighting over land is pretty stupid if you ask me which is why I think both sides should get the hell over it and create a two state solution and quit shooting at each other for f**** sake......but that's a dream that will probably never happen because its so much better for people to kill each other over a thousand year old grudge or whatever.
I mean I feel sorry for the children growing up in both Israel and Palestine because instead of being taught useful things they probably just get taught how evil the other side is...so that more hatred is bred. I mean Israeli children get to grow up and kill palestinians, palestinians get to grow up and attempt to sometimes kill Israelis....but should they hit anyone all hell falls upon Palestine and they send tanks and heavily armed troops to subdue what likely amounts to a couple terrorists hiding in a bunch of civilians whos lives Israel totally disregards all in the name of fighting terrorists or whatever. I mean how are things going to change if the palestinians remain subject to terrible living conditions and violence at the hands of Israel which obviously is going to create more hard feelings towards Israel.
You know, there is this thing on your keyboard that will remove old parts of the conversation and make it more readable. I suggest you try it out.
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Sweetleaf
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29 Mar 2012, 10:00 pm
John_Browning wrote:
You know, there is this thing on your keyboard that will remove old parts of the conversation and make it more readable. I suggest you try it out.
You know if you where just going to complain about my quoting people I respond to you did not have to copy and paste the entire conversation.
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JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 8:49 am
ruveyn wrote:
VMSmith wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
An international fact finding team could validate the Israelis if they really aren't violating human rights. I think a modern democratic nation withdrawing from the UNHRC is a very bad sign
is it? democratic i mean. the words democracy and israel are not something i would associate with each other. the same goes for UN & democracy actually.
governments in Israel are voted in and out by citizens registered to vote. Israel is a democratic secular state.
ruveyn
what does this mean for the palestinians in west bank or gaza who havent been offered israeli citizenship? they havent a right to vote in a country that is and always will be theirs. what does this mean for palestinians being kept in administrative detention with no charge or trial-those like khader adnan or hana shalabi? and what of those whose soverenity is violated further when israel violates borders set out in 1967 & are evicted from their homes and land? is it democracy when groups, including charities, are banned from criticising israel and its sh***y human rights record or else face criminal penalties? and how much democracy do arabs experience when arab political parties are banned for being anti zionist, arab political parties? as if any arab would awknowlege israel as having a right to exist on land that belongs to them. israel is not a democracy. to call it one is a joke.
and it is not secular if it claims to be a "jewish state". by doing so it declares it self territory for jews only and to be a jewish state the majority of citizens must be jewish so that is going to affect how it treats palestinians.
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30 Mar 2012, 9:24 am
VMSmith wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
VMSmith wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
An international fact finding team could validate the Israelis if they really aren't violating human rights. I think a modern democratic nation withdrawing from the UNHRC is a very bad sign
is it? democratic i mean. the words democracy and israel are not something i would associate with each other. the same goes for UN & democracy actually.
governments in Israel are voted in and out by citizens registered to vote. Israel is a democratic secular state.
ruveyn
what does this mean for the palestinians in west bank or gaza who havent been offered israeli citizenship? they havent a right to vote in a country that is and always will be theirs. what does this mean for palestinians being kept in administrative detention with no charge or trial-those like khader adnan or hana shalabi? and what of those whose soverenity is violated further when israel violates borders set out in 1967 & are evicted from their homes and land? is it democracy when groups, including charities, are banned from criticising israel and its sh***y human rights record or else face crimminal penalties? and how much democracy do arabs experience when arab political parties are banned for being anti zionist, arab political parties? as if any arab would awknowlege israel as having a right to exist on land that belongs to them. israel is not a democracy. to call it one is a joke.
and it is not secular if it claims to be a "jewish state". by doing so it declares it self territory for jews only and to be a jewish state the majority of citizens must be jewish so that is going to affect how it treats palestinians.
Palistinians are not Israeli citizens and and the Jews did actually have a claim on that land before the state of Israel was created, they bought it from it's previous owners. Unfortunately, Israel has every right to exist, regardless of how the state of Israel was created. Also, it needs mentioned that Christians, Muslims, Druze, Bahai, Buddhists, Samaritans and even a minority of Hindus are also Israeli citizens not only Jews.
As far as UN HRC goes, it is utter farce as following video shows:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goeRf1yuibc[/youtube]
JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 10:26 am
Human rights is not applicable to one select group above all others..its onus is on EVERYONE to protect. To say one group has more of a responsibility is in essence a degrading comment to make about the ability of other people to grasp the concept. But I expect such a comment from an anti-semite who comes on here to masquarade his comments as legitimate discussion. I guess when Israel was established and the surrounding nations decided to unilaterally declare war that was not a human rights violation in his logic....but any tactic used to kill Israelies aka Jews is legitimate in his eyes... very sad individual on here. His thread posts that obsess with condeming Israel and Jews ( circumcision posts) have made me come to this conclusion. I hope others see it as well.
30 Mar 2012, 10:27 am
snapcap wrote:
I think the responsibility of human rights sits more on Israel than Palestine, because Israel has been violating them since the creation of Israel.
There may be some iffy elements to the UNHRC, but what is worse is when a country exclaims that they've decided to ignore them.
There may be some iffy elements to the UNHRC, but what is worse is when a country exclaims that they've decided to ignore them.
No, responsibility does not sit more with Israel than Palestine. If you want a balanced and unbiased arbitration then the claims of both sides must be investigated. Look, if the UNHRC already decides that Israel is guilty of human rights violations before any investigation is even done and and actually gives instructions to not investigate claims of deliberate rocket fire on Israeli civilian areas then the whole investigation is bull****t. Franky, I don't blame them for deciding to cut ties with the UNHRC and I'm glad they did.
30 Mar 2012, 10:36 am
Israel dictates the lives of Palestinians to a great degree. Palestinians don't dictate the lives of Israelis. Anyone with a brain could have seen what was going to happen after the modern inception of Israel. I'm sure they did, but they frankly didn't care. Israel needs to own up to it's responsibilities and actions.
Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 10:49 am
Jono wrote:
VMSmith wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
VMSmith wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
An international fact finding team could validate the Israelis if they really aren't violating human rights. I think a modern democratic nation withdrawing from the UNHRC is a very bad sign
is it? democratic i mean. the words democracy and israel are not something i would associate with each other. the same goes for UN & democracy actually.
governments in Israel are voted in and out by citizens registered to vote. Israel is a democratic secular state.
ruveyn
what does this mean for the palestinians in west bank or gaza who havent been offered israeli citizenship? they havent a right to vote in a country that is and always will be theirs. what does this mean for palestinians being kept in administrative detention with no charge or trial-those like khader adnan or hana shalabi? and what of those whose soverenity is violated further when israel violates borders set out in 1967 & are evicted from their homes and land? is it democracy when groups, including charities, are banned from criticising israel and its sh***y human rights record or else face crimminal penalties? and how much democracy do arabs experience when arab political parties are banned for being anti zionist, arab political parties? as if any arab would awknowlege israel as having a right to exist on land that belongs to them. israel is not a democracy. to call it one is a joke.
and it is not secular if it claims to be a "jewish state". by doing so it declares it self territory for jews only and to be a jewish state the majority of citizens must be jewish so that is going to affect how it treats palestinians.
Palistinians are not Israeli citizens and and the Jews did actually have a claim on that land before the state of Israel was created, they bought it from it's previous owners. Unfortunately, Israel has every right to exist, regardless of how the state of Israel was created. Also, it needs mentioned that Christians, Muslims, Druze, Bahai, Buddhists, Samaritans and even a minority of Hindus are also Israeli citizens not only Jews.
I don't feel Israel has any more of a right to exist than any other nation, I mean yes I think every country should get its opportunity to thrive........but not at all costs, So that I don't think Israel should get a free pass to do whatever they want which it seems like they have. I mean there are more important things then the nation of Israel remaining in existence. I don't advocate we blow the whole thing up, but our government should probably stop giving them money at least....It doesn't look good when we're supporting a country that has such a sh*tty human rights record or whatever. And no I don't think the surrounding countries are that much 'better'...muslim theocracies are pretty terrible to.
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Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 10:53 am
snapcap wrote:
Israel dictates the lives of Palestinians to a great degree. Palestinians don't dictate the lives of Israelis. Anyone with a brain could have seen what was going to happen after the modern inception of Israel. I'm sure they did, but they frankly didn't care. Israel needs to own up to it's responsibilities and actions.
Exactly, thats like a simplified version of the point I was trying to make....I mean the whole reason I have an issue with Israel is I looked up some information on it, I think for some school paper or something and to me it looked kind of like Palestine could be compared to the ghettos in Nazi Germany......another topic I researched a lot about. I guess I just found it sort of hypocritical and it pissed me off....and I have seen no evidence to suggest that the impression I got was wrong.
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JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 10:58 am
Sweetleaf wrote:
Jono wrote:
VMSmith wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
VMSmith wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
An international fact finding team could validate the Israelis if they really aren't violating human rights. I think a modern democratic nation withdrawing from the UNHRC is a very bad sign
is it? democratic i mean. the words democracy and israel are not something i would associate with each other. the same goes for UN & democracy actually.
governments in Israel are voted in and out by citizens registered to vote. Israel is a democratic secular state.
ruveyn
what does this mean for the palestinians in west bank or gaza who havent been offered israeli citizenship? they havent a right to vote in a country that is and always will be theirs. what does this mean for palestinians being kept in administrative detention with no charge or trial-those like khader adnan or hana shalabi? and what of those whose soverenity is violated further when israel violates borders set out in 1967 & are evicted from their homes and land? is it democracy when groups, including charities, are banned from criticising israel and its sh***y human rights record or else face crimminal penalties? and how much democracy do arabs experience when arab political parties are banned for being anti zionist, arab political parties? as if any arab would awknowlege israel as having a right to exist on land that belongs to them. israel is not a democracy. to call it one is a joke.
and it is not secular if it claims to be a "jewish state". by doing so it declares it self territory for jews only and to be a jewish state the majority of citizens must be jewish so that is going to affect how it treats palestinians.
Palistinians are not Israeli citizens and and the Jews did actually have a claim on that land before the state of Israel was created, they bought it from it's previous owners. Unfortunately, Israel has every right to exist, regardless of how the state of Israel was created. Also, it needs mentioned that Christians, Muslims, Druze, Bahai, Buddhists, Samaritans and even a minority of Hindus are also Israeli citizens not only Jews.
I don't feel Israel has any more of a right to exist than any other nation, I mean yes I think every country should get its opportunity to thrive........but not at all costs, So that I don't think Israel should get a free pass to do whatever they want which it seems like they have. I mean there are more important things then the nation of Israel remaining in existence. I don't advocate we blow the whole thing up, but our government should probably stop giving them money at least....It doesn't look good when we're supporting a country that has such a sh*tty human rights record or whatever. And no I don't think the surrounding countries are that much 'better'...muslim theocracies are pretty terrible to.
Israel doesn't get a free pass on anything. In fact its probably one of the most scrutinized countries in the world thanks to the efforts by the General Assembly Arab bloc to make it so. Israel actually disportionate coverage and attention based on size and importance to the overall fabric of global stability. The Central African civil war barely receives the attention and condemnations given to Israel, or ethnic violence in South Asia. The reason the U.S gives money to Israel is two fold: 1) as a diplomative initative to bring Israel to the negotiation table as a matter of " carrots" approach to foreign policy. 2 ) The money is used for joint projects in science, engineering, with a military approach to the appropiations. Removing foreign aid will do nothing to make the region more stable or peaceful. Not to mention we ( The U.S) have provided our other regional allies such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia with money, weapons, etc to bolster our leverage in the Near East.
JeremyNJ1984
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30 Mar 2012, 11:02 am
Sweetleaf wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Israel dictates the lives of Palestinians to a great degree. Palestinians don't dictate the lives of Israelis. Anyone with a brain could have seen what was going to happen after the modern inception of Israel. I'm sure they did, but they frankly didn't care. Israel needs to own up to it's responsibilities and actions.
Exactly, thats like a simplified version of the point I was trying to make....I mean the whole reason I have an issue with Israel is I looked up some information on it, I think for some school paper or something and to me it looked kind of like Palestine could be compared to the ghettos in Nazi Germany......another topic I researched a lot about. I guess I just found it sort of hypocritical and it pissed me off....and I have seen no evidence to suggest that the impression I got was wrong.
for a School paper? actually visit the region...and your way off..if you can't distinigush between the Ghettos and the current Palestinian territories than you shouldn't be writing papers of compare and contrasting. Their are huge glaring differences if you know the history of both events and the contexts they are/were set in. Its an erroneous comparison that has little basis in reality.
The Ghettos set up by the Nazis as a temporary relocation plan until the Camps were set up for the sole purpose of eliminating Jewry
The Palestinian Territories have been given their own local govt, their own ability to negotiate for a seperate state of their own, and they choose an All or Nothing approach to what they feel they should get in negotiations and than when it doesnt go their way they decide to erupt in violence, leaving Israel little choice but to respond to protect its territory.
I dont remmeber european jews launching suicide attacks on german civilians
Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 11:17 am
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Israel dictates the lives of Palestinians to a great degree. Palestinians don't dictate the lives of Israelis. Anyone with a brain could have seen what was going to happen after the modern inception of Israel. I'm sure they did, but they frankly didn't care. Israel needs to own up to it's responsibilities and actions.
Exactly, thats like a simplified version of the point I was trying to make....I mean the whole reason I have an issue with Israel is I looked up some information on it, I think for some school paper or something and to me it looked kind of like Palestine could be compared to the ghettos in Nazi Germany......another topic I researched a lot about. I guess I just found it sort of hypocritical and it pissed me off....and I have seen no evidence to suggest that the impression I got was wrong.
for a School paper? actually visit the region...and your way off..if you can't distinigush between the Ghettos and the current Palestinian territories than you shouldn't be writing papers of compare and contrasting. Their are huge glaring differences if you know the history of both events and the contexts they are/were set in. Its an erroneous comparison that has little basis in reality.
Yes the first I heard of the conflict in Israel and Palestine was when I was doing research for a school paper, what is so wrong about that? Also how am I going to afford to go to Israel, and why would I want to? Considering the ongoing conflict and my dislike of violence I don't think Israel or anywhere in the Middle East is where I will be going. I think the way the Palestinians are treated resembles some of the early stages of the holocaust.......not saying they are going to start a full scale extermination, but I certainly don't agree with how they're doing things. And I have really seen nothing to suggest that they are indeed looking to find a solution that is not totally at the expense of all the palestinians. Hell I don't even agree with my own countries involvement in some other regions, and I am supposed to like whats going on between Israel and Palestine?
The Ghettos set up by the Nazis as a temporary relocation plan until the Camps were set up for the sole purpose of eliminating Jewry
The Palestinian Territories have been given their own local govt, their own ability to negotiate for a seperate state of their own, and they choose an All or Nothing approach to what they feel they should get in negotiations and than when it doesnt go their way they decide to erupt in violence, leaving Israel little choice but to respond to protect its territory.
I dont remmeber european jews launching suicide attacks on german civilians
As I said, I never said the two where the same.......I said they seemed similar in some ways, and I was talking the early stages with the ghettos specifically, not to the point of death camps and such. But yeah being blocked from getting medical service, having electricity or other resources cut off ect. reminds me what I read about the ghettos in Nazi Germany.
Hmm never thought someone would see it as a negative thing that I like to read non-fiction books....or liked to, not so much nowdays.
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Sweetleaf
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30 Mar 2012, 11:19 am
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Israel doesn't get a free pass on anything. In fact its probably one of the most scrutinized countries in the world thanks to the efforts by the General Assembly Arab bloc to make it so. Israel actually disportionate coverage and attention based on size and importance to the overall fabric of global stability. The Central African civil war barely receives the attention and condemnations given to Israel, or ethnic violence in South Asia. The reason the U.S gives money to Israel is two fold: 1) as a diplomative initative to bring Israel to the negotiation table as a matter of " carrots" approach to foreign policy. 2 ) The money is used for joint projects in science, engineering, with a military approach to the appropiations. Removing foreign aid will do nothing to make the region more stable or peaceful. Not to mention we ( The U.S) have provided our other regional allies such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia with money, weapons, etc to bolster our leverage in the Near East.
Yeah so the money that goes to Israel just feeds the military industrial complex, except the branch in Israel.......doesn't the U.S spend enough on destruction as is. Besides more violence and oppression towards the Palestinians is not going to make the region more stable and peaceful either. Either both sides have to grow up and quit throwing explosives at each other, and come to a two state solution or decide they aren't so different after all and just leave it as one nation but without the division and violence between palestinians and Israelies.... I mean they should do that two state solution or not. But trying to figure out who started the conflict and who's justified in killing who what about a solution.
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