Snowball thrown on Senate floor to debunk climate change
26 Mar 2015, 6:57 pm
Syd wrote:
There are many influences on climate change, including:
- human industries
- volcanic eruptions
- earthquakes
- solar variations
- Milankovitch cycles (orbital variations)
---
The only of these factors we have control over: human industries.
The Earth is our only home. The least we can do is care for her as she's done for us over hundreds of millennia.
- human industries
- volcanic eruptions
- earthquakes
- solar variations
- Milankovitch cycles (orbital variations)
---
The only of these factors we have control over: human industries.
The Earth is our only home. The least we can do is care for her as she's done for us over hundreds of millennia.
Earthquakes? I wouldn't think that would be very high on the list.
Continental drift, which you didn't list, is an important one, though. Also (and related to continental drift) the oceanic currents.
26 Mar 2015, 7:42 pm
Yes, continental drift and oceanic currents too. Many of these phenomena are interconnected. So for example, particularly large earthquakes could trigger volcanic activity, tsunamis, the moving and breaking apart of large glaciers, etc.
Earthquakes can also trigger the release of trapped gases:
https://www.marum.de/en/Earthquakes_Yet ... ase_2.html
26 Mar 2015, 7:59 pm
Syd wrote:
Yes, continental drift and oceanic currents too. Many of these phenomena are interconnected. So for example, particularly large earthquakes could trigger volcanic activity, tsunamis, the moving and breaking apart of large glaciers, etc.
Earthquakes can also trigger the release of trapped gases:
https://www.marum.de/en/Earthquakes_Yet ... ase_2.html
Earthquakes can also trigger the release of trapped gases:
https://www.marum.de/en/Earthquakes_Yet ... ase_2.html
I doubt that earthquakes are little more than background noise on the issue.
Continental drift, on the other hand, is thought to be a very important influence -- if it weren't for continental drift, we likely wouldn't even be in an ice age. That would also be an indication of why ice ages last so many millions of years -- it takes a very long time for continental drift to move the continents around. We've only been in this ice age for about 2.6 million years -- how many more millions of years will the ice age last?
It would be great if Global Warming could bring us out of the ice age, but that is, unfortunately, unlikely.
26 Mar 2015, 8:40 pm
Continental drift is NOT a factor in the subject of this thread: climate change on the timescale of human history.
The continents only move about an inch a year. Australia will get more tropical as it continues to move towards the Equator, but in the next century it will only get eight feet closer to the equator. So any climate change Australia will experience in the next century wont have anything to do with that microscopic change in the continent's position.
In fact-in the entire half million years since the start of this recent batch of four Ice Ages we have had- the continents have moved all of about ten miles. Not enough to effect the Ice Ages themselves, nor any other climate trend in that time.
When you go to a bigger time scale, like the 63 million years since the dinosaurs went extinct, then you start getting climate effected by changes in the continents' positions.
26 Mar 2015, 9:18 pm
naturalplastic wrote:
Continental drift is NOT a factor in the subject of this thread: climate change on the timescale of human history.
The continents only move about an inch a year. Australia will get more tropical as it continues to move towards the Equator, but in the next century it will only get eight feet closer to the equator. So any climate change Australia will experience in the next century wont have anything to do with that microscopic change in the continent's position.
In fact-in the entire half million years since the start of this recent batch of four Ice Ages we have had- the continents have moved all of about ten miles. Not enough to effect the Ice Ages themselves, nor any other climate trend in that time.
The continents only move about an inch a year. Australia will get more tropical as it continues to move towards the Equator, but in the next century it will only get eight feet closer to the equator. So any climate change Australia will experience in the next century wont have anything to do with that microscopic change in the continent's position.
In fact-in the entire half million years since the start of this recent batch of four Ice Ages we have had- the continents have moved all of about ten miles. Not enough to effect the Ice Ages themselves, nor any other climate trend in that time.
If you want to talk about the changing of climates, then continental drift is, indeed, thought to be a very major factor.
And we have not had four ice ages in the last half million years. We have had glacial periods which are not the same as ice ages. This ice age that are currently in is nearly 2.6 million years old.
Only by the most naive, least-scientific view can you call a glacial period an ice age.
26 Mar 2015, 11:14 pm
The trees protect this planet from the extremes of temperatures occurring, as well as protecting the soil from erosion and turning carbon dioxide into breathable oxygen.
So cut down all the forests, including the rain forests in the Amazon region and mankind is courting disaster. Winters get colder. Summers get hotter. Soil erosion removes the top layer of soil and land is turned into desert and houses just collapse under their foundations. The natural filter that plants provide that absorb man made chemicals, if removed, gives rise to atmospheric pollution that kills asthmatics and older people with breathing difficulties. Because the trees are removed that convert the carbon dioxide, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels increase alarmingly melting the earth's polar ice regions and causing rise in sea levels. The rising sea levels swamp the low lying land mass areas at sea level making those areas unliveable and forcing people to flee to higher land levels. The increase in sea temperatures give rise to formation of more frequent and more ferocious cyclonic patterns that wreck coastal cities and kill people.
We're talking here about the future of our planet and the deaths of countless millions of people from climate change, but if peple want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that climate change is just about a couple of degrees of temperature increase and more palatable winter temperatures, then this world really has a problem and the children who are inheriting this planet from us, really have no future to look forward to. Reminds me a little of the world when Hilter came to power. Total denial of what was happening in Germany and hoping that the problem would just go away by itself, or that if we just close our eyes and pretend that nothing was going on, the problem would go away.
26 Mar 2015, 11:58 pm
progaspie wrote:
The trees protect this planet from the extremes of temperatures occurring, as well as protecting the soil from erosion and turning carbon dioxide into breathable oxygen.
So cut down all the forests, including the rain forests in the Amazon region and mankind is courting disaster. Winters get colder. Summers get hotter. Soil erosion removes the top layer of soil and land is turned into desert and houses just collapse under their foundations. The natural filter that plants provide that absorb man made chemicals, if removed, gives rise to atmospheric pollution that kills asthmatics and older people with breathing difficulties. Because the trees are removed that convert the carbon dioxide, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels increase alarmingly melting the earth's polar ice regions and causing rise in sea levels. The rising sea levels swamp the low lying land mass areas at sea level making those areas unliveable and forcing people to flee to higher land levels. The increase in sea temperatures give rise to formation of more frequent and more ferocious cyclonic patterns that wreck coastal cities and kill people.
We're talking here about the future of our planet and the deaths of countless millions of people from climate change, but if peple want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that climate change is just about a couple of degrees of temperature increase and more palatable winter temperatures, then this world really has a problem and the children who are inheriting this planet from us, really have no future to look forward to. Reminds me a little of the world when Hilter came to power. Total denial of what was happening in Germany and hoping that the problem would just go away by itself, or that if we just close our eyes and pretend that nothing was going on, the problem would go away.
So cut down all the forests, including the rain forests in the Amazon region and mankind is courting disaster. Winters get colder. Summers get hotter. Soil erosion removes the top layer of soil and land is turned into desert and houses just collapse under their foundations. The natural filter that plants provide that absorb man made chemicals, if removed, gives rise to atmospheric pollution that kills asthmatics and older people with breathing difficulties. Because the trees are removed that convert the carbon dioxide, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels increase alarmingly melting the earth's polar ice regions and causing rise in sea levels. The rising sea levels swamp the low lying land mass areas at sea level making those areas unliveable and forcing people to flee to higher land levels. The increase in sea temperatures give rise to formation of more frequent and more ferocious cyclonic patterns that wreck coastal cities and kill people.
We're talking here about the future of our planet and the deaths of countless millions of people from climate change, but if peple want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that climate change is just about a couple of degrees of temperature increase and more palatable winter temperatures, then this world really has a problem and the children who are inheriting this planet from us, really have no future to look forward to. Reminds me a little of the world when Hilter came to power. Total denial of what was happening in Germany and hoping that the problem would just go away by itself, or that if we just close our eyes and pretend that nothing was going on, the problem would go away.
There is so much ridiculous panic there that I hardly know if it is even worth responding.
We aren't cutting down all the trees. A lot of them, yes, but hardly all. For that matter, from what I understand, large portions of North America have more trees than when settlers first arrived. Also, plants of all types use CO2, not just trees. In the absurd event that we did cut down all the trees, we wouldn't see CO2 spiral out of control.
Houses collapsing on their foundations? I don't even know how to respond to that nonsense.
As for greater storms from warmer waters, if that was the case then why aren't we seeing much stronger hurricanes and typhoons now? Some research indicates that the wind shear would reduce the strength of the hurricanes and typhoons.
Do you really want to know what warmer temperatures mean? Look at history. Warmer temperatures mean more life, not less. During the Holocene Climatic Optimum when temperatures were about 5 F higher than today, on average, the Sahara Desert was green, the Gobi Desert was forested, and northern Mexico was considerably wetter than today? A disaster? Not hardly. To the contrary, that is when our distant ancestors were making their first steps toward agriculture and civilization.
27 Mar 2015, 4:10 am
eric76 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Continental drift is NOT a factor in the subject of this thread: climate change on the timescale of human history.
The continents only move about an inch a year. Australia will get more tropical as it continues to move towards the Equator, but in the next century it will only get eight feet closer to the equator. So any climate change Australia will experience in the next century wont have anything to do with that microscopic change in the continent's position.
In fact-in the entire half million years since the start of this recent batch of four Ice Ages we have had- the continents have moved all of about ten miles. Not enough to effect the Ice Ages themselves, nor any other climate trend in that time.
The continents only move about an inch a year. Australia will get more tropical as it continues to move towards the Equator, but in the next century it will only get eight feet closer to the equator. So any climate change Australia will experience in the next century wont have anything to do with that microscopic change in the continent's position.
In fact-in the entire half million years since the start of this recent batch of four Ice Ages we have had- the continents have moved all of about ten miles. Not enough to effect the Ice Ages themselves, nor any other climate trend in that time.
If you want to talk about the changing of climates, then continental drift is, indeed, thought to be a very major factor.
And we have not had four ice ages in the last half million years. We have had glacial periods which are not the same as ice ages. This ice age that are currently in is nearly 2.6 million years old.
Only by the most naive, least-scientific view can you call a glacial period an ice age.
Thanks for correcting me about a detail that doesnt change my point.
And thanks for agreeing with me: that continental drift has nothing to do with the subject we are talking about.
(since you havent made any point in this post- I can only conclude that you're agreeing with me).
27 Mar 2015, 1:09 pm
naturalplastic wrote:
eric76 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Continental drift is NOT a factor in the subject of this thread: climate change on the timescale of human history.
The continents only move about an inch a year. Australia will get more tropical as it continues to move towards the Equator, but in the next century it will only get eight feet closer to the equator. So any climate change Australia will experience in the next century wont have anything to do with that microscopic change in the continent's position.
In fact-in the entire half million years since the start of this recent batch of four Ice Ages we have had- the continents have moved all of about ten miles. Not enough to effect the Ice Ages themselves, nor any other climate trend in that time.
The continents only move about an inch a year. Australia will get more tropical as it continues to move towards the Equator, but in the next century it will only get eight feet closer to the equator. So any climate change Australia will experience in the next century wont have anything to do with that microscopic change in the continent's position.
In fact-in the entire half million years since the start of this recent batch of four Ice Ages we have had- the continents have moved all of about ten miles. Not enough to effect the Ice Ages themselves, nor any other climate trend in that time.
If you want to talk about the changing of climates, then continental drift is, indeed, thought to be a very major factor.
And we have not had four ice ages in the last half million years. We have had glacial periods which are not the same as ice ages. This ice age that are currently in is nearly 2.6 million years old.
Only by the most naive, least-scientific view can you call a glacial period an ice age.
Thanks for correcting me about a detail that doesnt change my point.
And thanks for agreeing with me: that continental drift has nothing to do with the subject we are talking about.
(since you havent made any point in this post- I can only conclude that you're agreeing with me).
Continental drift does play a large role in determining today's basic climates. Another factor would be the long-term solar output (not counting short term changes). Many of the remaining factors result in differences of various degree and lengths of time in that basic climate. You are correct to the extent that continental drift isn't going to create any short-term changes in climate.
As far as only considering climate changes during human history, I think that is very short sighted. Consideringly only human history gives us nothing but a very miniscule and confusing view of the climate. It leads us to think of today's climate as the normal climate when it is decidedly not normal for the Earth.
In terms of human history, it is warmer than average today, but still quite a bit cooler than the average temperature of the time when mankind started to take its first steps toward civilization.
In terms of Earth history, it is cold out there. We only see temperatures such as today during ice ages. While it is several degrees cooler during periods of glaciations of ice ages, our temperatures today are still ice age temperatures. Relatively pleasant temperatures, but still ice age temperatures.
27 Mar 2015, 6:44 pm
eric76 wrote:
progaspie wrote:
The trees protect this planet from the extremes of temperatures occurring, as well as protecting the soil from erosion and turning carbon dioxide into breathable oxygen.
So cut down all the forests, including the rain forests in the Amazon region and mankind is courting disaster. Winters get colder. Summers get hotter. Soil erosion removes the top layer of soil and land is turned into desert and houses just collapse under their foundations. The natural filter that plants provide that absorb man made chemicals, if removed, gives rise to atmospheric pollution that kills asthmatics and older people with breathing difficulties. Because the trees are removed that convert the carbon dioxide, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels increase alarmingly melting the earth's polar ice regions and causing rise in sea levels. The rising sea levels swamp the low lying land mass areas at sea level making those areas unliveable and forcing people to flee to higher land levels. The increase in sea temperatures give rise to formation of more frequent and more ferocious cyclonic patterns that wreck coastal cities and kill people.
We're talking here about the future of our planet and the deaths of countless millions of people from climate change, but if peple want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that climate change is just about a couple of degrees of temperature increase and more palatable winter temperatures, then this world really has a problem and the children who are inheriting this planet from us, really have no future to look forward to. Reminds me a little of the world when Hilter came to power. Total denial of what was happening in Germany and hoping that the problem would just go away by itself, or that if we just close our eyes and pretend that nothing was going on, the problem would go away.
So cut down all the forests, including the rain forests in the Amazon region and mankind is courting disaster. Winters get colder. Summers get hotter. Soil erosion removes the top layer of soil and land is turned into desert and houses just collapse under their foundations. The natural filter that plants provide that absorb man made chemicals, if removed, gives rise to atmospheric pollution that kills asthmatics and older people with breathing difficulties. Because the trees are removed that convert the carbon dioxide, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels increase alarmingly melting the earth's polar ice regions and causing rise in sea levels. The rising sea levels swamp the low lying land mass areas at sea level making those areas unliveable and forcing people to flee to higher land levels. The increase in sea temperatures give rise to formation of more frequent and more ferocious cyclonic patterns that wreck coastal cities and kill people.
We're talking here about the future of our planet and the deaths of countless millions of people from climate change, but if peple want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that climate change is just about a couple of degrees of temperature increase and more palatable winter temperatures, then this world really has a problem and the children who are inheriting this planet from us, really have no future to look forward to. Reminds me a little of the world when Hilter came to power. Total denial of what was happening in Germany and hoping that the problem would just go away by itself, or that if we just close our eyes and pretend that nothing was going on, the problem would go away.
There is so much ridiculous panic there that I hardly know if it is even worth responding.
We aren't cutting down all the trees. A lot of them, yes, but hardly all. For that matter, from what I understand, large portions of North America have more trees than when settlers first arrived. Also, plants of all types use CO2, not just trees. In the absurd event that we did cut down all the trees, we wouldn't see CO2 spiral out of control.
Houses collapsing on their foundations? I don't even know how to respond to that nonsense.
As for greater storms from warmer waters, if that was the case then why aren't we seeing much stronger hurricanes and typhoons now? Some research indicates that the wind shear would reduce the strength of the hurricanes and typhoons.
Do you really want to know what warmer temperatures mean? Look at history. Warmer temperatures mean more life, not less. During the Holocene Climatic Optimum when temperatures were about 5 F higher than today, on average, the Sahara Desert was green, the Gobi Desert was forested, and northern Mexico was considerably wetter than today? A disaster? Not hardly. To the contrary, that is when our distant ancestors were making their first steps toward agriculture and civilization.
Mud slides in the Phillipines have killed thousands of people in villages where the locals have cleared the vegetation around the village.
Cliff side houses in the States have collapsed as soil corrosion and bad weather destroys the land.
However if you get your news from Murdoch's Fox TV and the right wing Tea Party fanatics who are financing Murdoch's press, I guess you wouldn't think there was a problem.
27 Mar 2015, 8:13 pm
progaspie wrote:
eric76 wrote:
progaspie wrote:
The trees protect this planet from the extremes of temperatures occurring, as well as protecting the soil from erosion and turning carbon dioxide into breathable oxygen.
So cut down all the forests, including the rain forests in the Amazon region and mankind is courting disaster. Winters get colder. Summers get hotter. Soil erosion removes the top layer of soil and land is turned into desert and houses just collapse under their foundations. The natural filter that plants provide that absorb man made chemicals, if removed, gives rise to atmospheric pollution that kills asthmatics and older people with breathing difficulties. Because the trees are removed that convert the carbon dioxide, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels increase alarmingly melting the earth's polar ice regions and causing rise in sea levels. The rising sea levels swamp the low lying land mass areas at sea level making those areas unliveable and forcing people to flee to higher land levels. The increase in sea temperatures give rise to formation of more frequent and more ferocious cyclonic patterns that wreck coastal cities and kill people.
We're talking here about the future of our planet and the deaths of countless millions of people from climate change, but if peple want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that climate change is just about a couple of degrees of temperature increase and more palatable winter temperatures, then this world really has a problem and the children who are inheriting this planet from us, really have no future to look forward to. Reminds me a little of the world when Hilter came to power. Total denial of what was happening in Germany and hoping that the problem would just go away by itself, or that if we just close our eyes and pretend that nothing was going on, the problem would go away.
So cut down all the forests, including the rain forests in the Amazon region and mankind is courting disaster. Winters get colder. Summers get hotter. Soil erosion removes the top layer of soil and land is turned into desert and houses just collapse under their foundations. The natural filter that plants provide that absorb man made chemicals, if removed, gives rise to atmospheric pollution that kills asthmatics and older people with breathing difficulties. Because the trees are removed that convert the carbon dioxide, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels increase alarmingly melting the earth's polar ice regions and causing rise in sea levels. The rising sea levels swamp the low lying land mass areas at sea level making those areas unliveable and forcing people to flee to higher land levels. The increase in sea temperatures give rise to formation of more frequent and more ferocious cyclonic patterns that wreck coastal cities and kill people.
We're talking here about the future of our planet and the deaths of countless millions of people from climate change, but if peple want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that climate change is just about a couple of degrees of temperature increase and more palatable winter temperatures, then this world really has a problem and the children who are inheriting this planet from us, really have no future to look forward to. Reminds me a little of the world when Hilter came to power. Total denial of what was happening in Germany and hoping that the problem would just go away by itself, or that if we just close our eyes and pretend that nothing was going on, the problem would go away.
There is so much ridiculous panic there that I hardly know if it is even worth responding.
We aren't cutting down all the trees. A lot of them, yes, but hardly all. For that matter, from what I understand, large portions of North America have more trees than when settlers first arrived. Also, plants of all types use CO2, not just trees. In the absurd event that we did cut down all the trees, we wouldn't see CO2 spiral out of control.
Houses collapsing on their foundations? I don't even know how to respond to that nonsense.
As for greater storms from warmer waters, if that was the case then why aren't we seeing much stronger hurricanes and typhoons now? Some research indicates that the wind shear would reduce the strength of the hurricanes and typhoons.
Do you really want to know what warmer temperatures mean? Look at history. Warmer temperatures mean more life, not less. During the Holocene Climatic Optimum when temperatures were about 5 F higher than today, on average, the Sahara Desert was green, the Gobi Desert was forested, and northern Mexico was considerably wetter than today? A disaster? Not hardly. To the contrary, that is when our distant ancestors were making their first steps toward agriculture and civilization.
Mud slides in the Phillipines have killed thousands of people in villages where the locals have cleared the vegetation around the village.
Cliff side houses in the States have collapsed as soil corrosion and bad weather destroys the land.
However if you get your news from Murdoch's Fox TV and the right wing Tea Party fanatics who are financing Murdoch's press, I guess you wouldn't think there was a problem.
Mud slides resulting from clearing vegetation on hillsides is hardly a problem of Global Warming. There is hardly anything new about soil erosion.
The reason there is a problem is that people build their homes in stupid places.
As for soil erosion, in general, the problem is usually the result of ignorance, not the weather.
It has nothing to do with where I get my news (which is rarely Fox News) or being a member of the Tea Party (which I am not).
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