AS Women and Relationships

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^ i relate to the physical symptoms, Hovis. There is definitely a strong tendency toward headaches and the like in me too. It's so exhausting and the head pounds.
I heard Attwood in an interview mentioning that ASD people were a really courageous bunch. i think we are. When I sad to my own psychologist recently that we ASD people get twice as tired as normal people he chimed in he thought it was TEN times as tired.
People do not realise just how hard we actually work at life and relating. I wouldn't swap who I am for the world and I like being autistic, but it is also difficult> i like the gifts it gives me but i find some aspects of it really hard. We live in a special realm. A difficult, but special realm.

Wow, that sounds like my internal thoughts too! Unfortunately, since I´ve been reading about AS a lot these days, and have more knowledge, there is also the criticism now that goes with it: "oops, I probably went into too much detail there when that person asked me how I was; and I forgot to ask them afterward how they´re doing"...."oops, I interrupted yet again"- (I can´t seem to figure out when to speak)- etc., etc. When I´m with someone I don´t know, it seems to be all guesswork..."am I supposed to say this?" or "am I supposed to say that?" Should I smile? Should I look serious? I choose something, then the whole time I´m thinking, "I hope that was right..." and "maybe I should have chosen the other alternative". Small talk is basically hell for me, and I notice I can´t seem to keep my body still when I do it; my head moves around, I can´t make eye contact, and it´s like my body isn´t focused anymore in reality...hard to explain...Luckily in my job, I don´t have to make too much small talk with my students, it´s more a formal teaching situation. When I have to, I find it easier to make small talk with people I know; at least I do care about them, and I know the small talk won´t last long. But with people I don´t know, ugh...what´s the point? I often find small talk seriously grating to my nerves. This is a huge problem I have with dating, or singles events. For me, a 45 minute date with someone I don´t know is about my limit; but try explaining this to a man who doesn´t understand that! I always have to make excuses about how I have to be somewhere, or do something....

In my case, though, if I´m talking about a special interest things do seem to flow better, and I don´t experience the same exhaustion that I have with other conversations. In fact, my level of exhaustion seems to be directly proportionate to the content of the conversation. If it´s about my special interest, I actually have more "staying power", often, than the people around me.

I wonder if this talking thing is why I found relationships so exhausting- or maybe one of the reasons. I didn´t really think about that before, but I guess just being around someone a lot means you are interacting with them much more. I never actually lived with a man (unbelievable, at my age!)- but having someone around more often was stressful enough. Actually, for me a big reason for the tiredness may have been that I couldn´t just do my own thing at any time, but felt often like I had to put myself aside somehow.

This is what I find. However, not many want to hear it.

With everyday conversation, I tune out immediately. I don't like to constantly hear about topics such as the weather (unless it's within the context of a scientific or similar discussion). One psychologist wondered whether I was arrogant when I mentioned this trait! I wish I could meet one like millie's; judging by his comment on tiredness levels, I would have felt understood.

In relationships, there would be very little conversation. Most ignored me in this respect. I'd have loved to have had some conversation that didn't revolve around someone trying to persuade me to be more physical, or being critical and patronizing.

I found people hard work emotionally. They were hurtful and confusing. Some would ignore me for weeks at a time before seeing me. This is when I can experience real loneliness; being in an in between state. If I'm not with someone at all (or attached emotionally), I don't get lonely.

I expended much energy trying to decipher their intentions. Growing up, I'd not feel like a real person when around others socially, and some of these men treated me as such, though it was often subtle. There was one who did enjoy my company. This was hard work in different ways; e.g., feigning interest in everyday topics (though I soon gave that up and admitted when I was bored).

millie, yes - it sounds selfish to say it, as if I'm demanding some kind of special treatment, but when people become angry because I won't socialize, accusing me of being rude and unfeeling, they don't realize how difficult and tiring it is. It flows so naturally with them that they can't imagine how it could not be so for someone else.



I have a lot of difficulty understanding that (presumably NT) viewpoint. Why is it 'arrogant' not to want to listen to obvious facts being repeatedly stated, or to people whom you barely know talking about mundane aspects of their lives?

I read an excellent post on WP once observing that NT people get 'small talk' in the wrong order. The logic is this: when you first meet a person and know nothing about them, these personal details are highly unlikely to be of interest. Such things only become something you might want to know when you already know and care about them.

For instance, the fact that Person A's brother, B, has a new job, is unlikely to be something I'm remotely interested in hearing if I've only just met A and do not even know who B is. I am constantly at an utter loss as to why people would imagine a virtual stranger would want to hear about such things. If, however, I already know and like A and B well, then this may become something I wish to hear, because the fact that I care about B will mean I will be taking more of an interest in his life in general.

So to summarize, it should be the involved discussions that we enjoy that come first, as hearing about these topics and opinions stimulates interest in the other person. Then, at a later date, the more mundane personal facts become appropriate.



From what I've heard, one potential partner first behaving as if they're interested, then feigning disinterest and practically ignoring the other for a period of time is supposed to be a way of keeping them 'keen'. Apparently NTs enjoy these games, and the constant guesswork is exciting to them. It just seems incredibly cruel and rude to me.

Outlier, regarding my psychologist - i am very lucky. He worked and trained with Attwood's Minds and Hearts team (attwood's clinic just 2 hours away in brisbane.) I feel very very lucky that such specialists are found along the east coast of Australia.
A lot of the strategies and help i have are not available to everyone.
Some on WP like to give Attwood and his approach a good bashing.
I have benefited enormously. For the first time in my life, since early adolescence I am not suicidal. I lived with that as a normal part of mental meanderings. Now that i am getting the right treatment, I am learning how to carve out a life for myself that is tailored to my needs.

good luck.

Hovis: your post was spot on in describing how I feel, most particularly what you wrote about small talk, as well as the games NTs play to keep each other "keen". Yes, these things seem really strange and backwards to me too! What an odd world we live in...

millie: I agree with you about Tony Attwood. I think he´s doing great work. When I read his book, "The Complete Guide to Asperger´s Syndrome", I cried repeatedly because I felt like finally someone put into words all the thoughts, feelings and experiences I have had in my life. I felt like I had spent years searching for that book, and that information, before I even knew what it was I was looking for. It was a relief to finally find it! I´m glad this information has helped you, too.

Ok, everybody- I just wanted to mention that I´m going to be offline for 4 days. But please, don´t let that stop you from continuing this discussion! I´ll be back to join it again...

I´m going to the meet up in the South of France, to meet other people from Wrong Planet! I leave tomorrow...and I´m really nervous!

I´m not taking my laptop with me, too cumbersome; though who knows, I may find a computer at some point when I´m there.

Anyway..that´s that. Wish me luck!

I´ll be back again, latest Monday.

Hi Morgana, i've been married, the sex was good, the dialgue/conversation/interaction didn't really exist. I was not aware of myself as even remotely connected to an ASD -so i viewed everything through reasoned eyes and huge use of intuitive/six sense/spiritual/symbolisms. I think i spent a lot of time submerged in his ideas of NT world. He is NT. He verbally abused me. I mastered disassociation from negating experiences at a very early age(5-6) So he'd get more abusive as his words dropped at his feet. The atmosphere just got more polluted. I chose him , knowing from the very beginning of our relationship that what i wanted was safety. I knew i was hiding from the 'world'- didn't know why then, but did know i would figure it out someday. This 'hiding ' was totally subconscious. It wasn't until i had my first child that i realised i had no energy to mother her because of the nature of our relationship. For the child to survive i had to wake up to what and how i was interacting with my husband.
Relationships before and after have been distant emotionally, ok for sex, ok for meeting of minds. All NT men in this category have remarked on what they saw as my weird 'independent attitude'. In kindergarten, a little boy took me aside once and said "B...I'll teach you how to be a girl." I understood his comment as being kind to me, but i thought he had missed the point "that i was not a doll". No personality but Cute, independent, naive mixed with wierdly smart, and 'u r so strong...' - are some male descriptors of me.
I always felt like i was melted when i was in a relationship...i didn't see myself.
Now I'm not sure what i want from another encounter of the close kind!
Now i'm feeling like i have to start being alive knowing i'm AS and finding out what i can /do feel about closeness/sharing/being equally responsible for the togetherness.???????????????

^ great post, bonny.
I relate to some aspects of it and especially the "melted" simile. For me, the mere proximity of relating becomes unbearable because i cannot find myself in relation to others but require solitude and special interest to achieve it. The normal expectations of companionship and friendship in a relationship feel like decimation, melting, sensory overload, demands and more demands and horror show stuff.

I remember that post too. However, I'm still not very interested even when I know them better. I once spoke to a counselor about my lack of interest in everyday topics and how I'd ignore my partner or say I was bored. She thought I should try to show more interest (give and take etc.). I could see her point, but still chose to be genuine and not feign more interest (which would have been very exhausting and, well, fake). I would compromise in my own way by not telling him to stop talking as long as he didn't expect me to listen. He was fine with that (being not exactly neurologically typical himself).




It is very cruel and rude. And you've just reminded me of where I first heard that line. It was during my first encounter. I was very naive and innocent, and he'd be playing these games so unnecessarily. He'd sometimes tell me he lived by the saying "Stay mean, keep them keen", and how it applied to friendships.

Something I often wonder is why NT people seem to be perfectly happy with insincerity and pretence. For instance, if somebody was seldom interested in what I had to say when I spoke to them (and, indeed, there's absolutely no reason why they should feel obliged to be) I would rather that they made that clear, instead of insisting, "I want you to talk to me! Of course I'm interested!" when it was quite obvious that they were not and causing me to waste my time. But most insist on going through this pantomime of pretending to care even when both parties are fully aware that the other doesn't.

i agree wholeheartedly with this. I cannot stand pretense, subterfuge or any kind of niceties that obscure the reality as it stands. If someone does not want to engage or talk, i prefer they say so. I tell my art dealers this all the time - to be frank and clear with me - but they do not understand what I mean. And so they continue on with their language and I continue on with mine.

I function so well with clarity, transparency and honesty. When those are missing, I cannot make sense of the relating at all and get flustered and upset. And the trouble is that i might get a vague sense that these are not in place int eh moment of an exchange, but cannot grasp it exactly and so i am like an eager child who gets taken for a ride and stuffed over. People can say things to me that I take literally and it is only days or weeks later that I realise they were :
1. unclear
2. opaque and cloudy
3. dishonest.

The trouble is this has happened my whole life to such an extent that I spend so much time trying to work out the angle of what people are actually saying to me - and i get swamped and inundated by the myriad possibilities that I am utterly confused and worried. There are times when this is very severe and times where it is less so. Chattering monkeys...chattering monkeys...talking heads...a tumble of words.

Oh yes, those torturous myriad possibilities! Must ... try ... to ... block.

It's unfathomable to me. It's tempting to devote more time to analysing people--which can be truly fascinating--but it would distract me from other tasks.

Also, it's still astonishing to realise people have completely different perspectives to me. I now wonder how much I omit when communicating simply due to assuming they already understand my perspective.

I think that most people find it mentally impossible to grasp just how plain and clear we need them to be. Interpreting these non-verbal signals and 'reading between the lines' comes so naturally to them that they cannot conceive of someone being unable to do it - do not even guess that this is what we mean that we cannot do. As a result, we once again miss and misinterpret things and they once again become angry/frustrated, because, to them, they were making things perfectly clear.

^ Oh exactly, Hovis. i do not think they have any idea of how we require communications that are plain, frank and straightforward.

I didn't get down to see my own exhibition in Sydney - i wanted to see the work but cannot face the city and having to interact with art dealers and people> so i stay a hermit.

So much effort goes into perpetual attempts to decipher meanings, uttered by other people. i suspect the bulk of my interacting is relegated to this place. In my mind. There are many rooms. Each is a phrase room.
There is one phrase written on each of the doors. One phrase. I enter the room. It is lined with files of possible interpretations...each phrase requires a whole room to accommodate all the interpretations. there is panic.

this is in fact the flip side of literalness and is BORN OUT OF literalness. I am still very literal, but when I draw a blank regarding a comprehension of intended meaning, I go into the VAST LABYRINTH OF MYSTIFYING INTERPRETATIONS. it is a kind of compiled mental stockpile collated over my 46 years. I get stuck there. I do not know what is meant. i have collected the possibilities, but am rarely closer to matching the correct meaning with the intended phrase.

Me? I refuse to have relationships now. I can't do them, and it stresses me to the point that I get physically sick if I ever think I fancy someone again or if some man is trying to force one. I've had bad experiences in my few relationships, so I'm constantly suspicious and withdrawing from the few male aquaintances I do have.

Yes that is one the cruelest rudest things I can think of in a relationship.

I'm just saying that I identify with what the other ladies are saying about losing power and losing their identity in relationships, and being taken advantage of. I was naive, I couldn't figure out what was really going on and I couldn't tell people what was happening to me so I got lied to and used badly. I still feel so bad about what they did, I'm not sure when something is assault but I didn't want it and had no control over what was being done to me.

It's comforting on one level to realise that this is an Aspie woman thing and I'm not the only one, but it's still terrifying. It feels like that sort of thing could happen again at any time, as high functioning as I appear to the world and my support people.

People always ask me why I don't have a boyfriend, so apparently it's the 'normal thing'. I wish I could tell them to mind their own business. I think I would like a partner someday, but then I really think about what that entails and I seriously don't think I could do it.

Last edited by activebutodd on 05 Jun 2009, 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.