AS Women and Relationships

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Outlier, I do feel very very lucky to have found my husband.

Desire isn't actually my issue, and my husband does make his needs and desires known. Usually I really do want to have sex, but I just can't relax enough to experience sexual touch as enjoyable instead of too much. It's just....too intense. Not painful, but too....just too.

I'm very grateful to have this long-term relationship. I've had a lot of other sexual relationships prior to this one, and the big problem there is that you start over from scratch in terms of the other person understanding what you like, need, etc. (And vice versa.)

We've had a lot of talks over the years, and our sex life isn't always smooth sailing (which is why we've had the talks), and all that history and working together on things makes it such a safe space for me. I can't imagine having sex with someone new....a whole new body to learn, new situations, figuring out trust....I'd rather be celibate, frankly. So if he ever dies, I guess that's it for me .

Yes, I mean slooooooooooww too. Really slow! One guy ( 12 years ago now ) was happy to do it for almost four months; and I mean happy; we were both glowing with happiness, but then a weekend course on sexuality got him thinking it was a sign of hidden resentments etc, and that we should be able to overcome it, and sadly I gave in, and the connection was wrecked, for ever, in the space of half an hour.

It's as if going too fast obliges me to "summarise"/compress the info so much that the touching, etc becomes an objectifying simplified depersonalised stereotyped exchange. It is reduced to the barest bones, a cartoon; of a man and a woman, the two sexes which society teaches us to believe in, and the two genders, and their roles and attributes, which society teaches us to believe in, etc.

This is probably why I found sexual experience with women, ( especially the first occasions ), such a growth experience; I couldn't do the same "summary"; it was overwhelming but liberating at same time, whereas with men it too often compresses into simplistic dynamics, which then I find almost impossible to avoid acting out in my whole relationship with them. Which can be alright, and exciting, for a while with someone who I didn't expect, or want, to do anything deeper with, but not if I wanted to be really close, mentally/intellectually, aswell as emotionally and sexually.

PS. When I still did sex, ( ! !! It's over 7 years since the last time ), I frequently did the "hurrying them along" thing too. And it is sad. I found it more and more alienating, self obliterating, engaging in sex like that. I prefer none at all, rather than that. The sort of sex when, as you say in your next post, there is a constant running commentary in my head of what to do, how to move, how long still, is he ... etc, and repeatedly telling myself to try and "relax" and think "sex", not other things ... a nightmare.

Whereas when it is slow enough, ( or sufficiently impersonal, with a stranger, when the "turn-on" produced by "simple", highly*** stereotypical, gender-role-play dynamics, "being a woman" for a bit, will keep me gripped, but which I don't think I am prepared to do anymore ), I forget about all that stuff, am swept up in the concentrated focussed desire and attention, in which that is all there is, utterly satisfying, deeply intensely absorbing, and from which I have real difficulty detaching myself, so masses and masses of time, and privacy, is essential.

*** When I say "highly" stereotypical, I mean "highly" ; the on the road/wild child-woman with questionable mental health, no money, no job, etc kind, that the french are so fond of portraying in their films ! And which my becoming a mother completely put a stop to.

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My desire is very unstable, and the sensitivity/anxiety issues surrounding contact interfere all the time, so I'm likely to never be normal in that respect. I would never really analyse these issues and would just go with the flow--because my desire was low--and not bother to search for a mate or, when accidentally having one, enjoying little about the physical contact. However, not having been in a love relationship, I don't know how much this could change.

I know that intensity. It makes me flinch and startle, offending the one initiating contact. It's much more intense when not relaxed. I mentioned the counsellor's comment because I found it once applied somewhat in my case. The person I was with was extremely accommodating, and it just worked to lower what desire I had. He behaved more like a caretaker. However, maybe there wasn't much desire there in the first place.

For clarification, by want, do you mean physically/emotionally crave/desire, rather than logically?

I cannot cope with that intensity and i do not really want sex/contact very often. I prefer sex on my own - like most other things. I flinch also and cannot stand the intensity - i feel as if my body is going to burst with overwhelm and i will actually attack - in a flight/fight response.

For the first 38 years of my life, every sexual experience i had was desensitised and modified by a LOT of alcohol and drugs. That was the only was to commune with another. Now I commune rarely, and with difficulty.

Until I went on a gluten-free diet that was the case for me.

I could count on the fingers of one hand, ( perhaps two ), the number of times I had sex without alcohol or drugs in the 10 years from when I first had sex until I first discovered the effects of gluten ( and to some extent casein )-exclusion, on my mental health, including my sensory issues.

I just realised that. Wow!! ! I'd never noticed before, but it was when I first began cutting out gluten, and sometimes dairy, that I first started being able to have, and most importantly appreciate, sex without being wrecked.

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^ Oh great Ouinon.
Yes, I think the diet stuff really does work for some of us.
amazing to hear of the connection.

I read this post last night, but had so many disjointed thoughts, all in different directions, that I was unable to answer at the time- (great post, by the way). It got me thinking; I´ve mulled over it, and maybe have found a bit more cohesion- (I apologize in advance if I write a "Parts-of-Objects" type of post, or if it´s so meandering that no one can follow it). This is, of course, a rather "touchy subject".

As for the first bit, about exciting, objectifying sex with strangers: I don´t seem to be able to do this. Sometimes, I´m almost envious of people who can! (I´d probably be a more satisfied person and get more sex that way... ) The problem is, in those situations I just don´t feel any desire, so that basically defeats the purpose. I´ve realized since I´ve been on Wrong Planet, and others have brought it up in discussions, that I seem to be one of those people who thinks of strangers almost as being like "bowling pins". Even if the most gorgeous man in the world were to approach me, without having known him or seeing his "essence", he would be for me essentially a talking bowling pin- (albeit a beautiful talking bowling pin.) I think this is my problem with attraction, I don´t feel any kind of warmth whatsoever in this situation. It´s not that I haven´t tried; in my younger days- (I think I already admitted this on this thread)- I used to sometimes just throw myself into situations with men. This was because I saw I had few experiences compared to others, and I wondered what was "wrong with me"- (as well as the fact that people around me constantly asked why I did not have boyfriends). I thought if I just thew myself into things, that the emotions I was "supposed to get" would just follow. I did it basically as an experiment. With only Jane Austen as my guide, I was totally confused as to how things happened in the "real world". What I found is that when I had sex in this way, I was actually almost hypo-sensitive...(well, not exactly hypo-sensitive, as I still always had sensory issues. I guess, basically, the touching in itself meant almost nothing to me). You´re absolutely right, this kind of jumping into sex can stagnate the relationship...though in my case, often, probably the relationships would never have been good under any circumstances. I did a lot of bumbling about before I knew what I was really doing. I´m not really proud of that, but then again, none of it was intuitive for me anyway.

So in that situation, I experienced a lot of what millie was talking about, in other words, unconnected sex. I wasted a lot of energy wondering what was wrong with me, why I felt so disconnected so much of the time: (that´s why I want to write that book! I´m sure other young women on the spectrum go through the same things. I´d like to save people the agonies I went through; though on the other hand, I guess one´s own path to self discovery can give one much added strength and character). I finally realized that having these experiences were absolutely wrong for me, and I decided that no sex was better than bad sex. This is why I go through hugely long times of having no sex...I don´t want to "settle". Good things are worth waiting for.

Through my interactions on Wrong Planet, as well as the Aspies I´ve met in real life, I´m coming to the conclusion that attraction for people on the spectrum is very different from the way it is for NTs. (Though we autistic people differ amongst ourselves somewhat, I would also guess). I´ve known for a long time that the whole dating "system" in our society doesn´t really work for me. With all the game playing and posturing, men usually try to hide the very things that I would normally find attractive about them. I think, in my case, this is where the "time" element comes in: I need to be able to see the person´s essence before I can feel any real attraction for them. I´m not sure whether the problem lies so much in any real time frame, as rather in how honestly that person shows themselves to me. Things can happen in varying lengths of (physical) time. I have said "no" to men who I thought I really cared about, because I thought it felt too soon- (and then never heard from them again!) With me, it seems to be based on an internal feeling, or a "connection", and I´ve learned to trust my own instincts more. In that case, if it feels right- (timing included)- then it doesn´t feel objectified. I think through years of feeling uncomfortable, and feeling like I was "wrong", it finally dawned on me that sex and romance were things that I should actually enjoy...I was so bogged down with trying to fit in and do things "right" in this difficult world, that I almost didn´t even really take my own feelings into consideration!

Did anyone else have that problem? Just curious....

I don't think i really "connect" in a normal way to anyone - and so what this means is I do not "connect" sexually.

I do have imagination. if anything, the associational thinking between my conscious and unconscious realms is exceedingly pronounced - almost to my detriment. I suspect this is the case for many autistic people who tend towards the arts and literature. IN terms of relating to people - they are like tenpin bowls for me....For the most part.
What i do to relate is to create a kind of template in my mind of a given person - i try to analyse and construct them and then impose a kind of personality onto them. It fails dismally sometimes - well, quite often.

The point is the whole proces is an analytical and cogntiive one. Women here on WP seem to tend toward this process (correct me if i am wrong...)- this thread seems to be an example of the analytical component of what i am describing. We home in on details and then construct our ideas of people? Well, rather than speak for others, this is what i do to survive the world of people.

It means the real and the ideal or the constructed template never really match. It is an internalised way of coping with people and it leaves little room for flexibility, changes in character, or divergence from expectations.

Sex is just a loaded and complex and too intense realm for me.
I had a long distance relationship with a man who was on the spectrum a while back. I think we both fell into this process of being able to attend to the scripted notion of the beginnings of some kind of relationship, but as it gradually moved into the next phase, it fell apart dismally. I see how i am incapable of understanding how other people operate and how i struggle to make sense of others. I could not fathom the differences and I could not really understand a lot of it beyond the surface and initial phase. this fits in with what I have read about ASD people and relationships - and the early "scripted" approach - based on 'Jane Austen" or a movie, or a soap or mags or whatever, and tehn after that approach has been adhered to or tried, there is little left. I still do not know how to go past this phase. And I was in relationships with people> i just never understand it. (fortunately, they were often as clueless as i was. )

When I attended that talk by Isabelle Henault on AS and Sexuality, one of the issues that was apparent in her research was that AS people tend to fantasize strongly regarding sex - or act out by way of virtual means - but struggle with the complexities and i believe, the spontaneity, of intimacy. It is interesting how some of us here who have posted cope with this by way of slowing it all down, as Ouinon describes so well, and then others of us cannot manage that.

I would probably be described as "bent" in my sexual relating, because i am less interested in the partner's body and more interested in their objects and things. It is simply a more predictable way for me to connect I suspect, and follows the same kinds of routined and repetitive behaviours I exhibit in other areas of my life.

Rather than quote your entire post, Morgana, I shall simply say ditto to all!

I absolutely experience what you are describing. Recently, I initiated a relationship with a guy (basically, I slept with him) who I liked, but had only just found out fancied me. He wasn't putting pressure on me but the entire situation demanded a "yes or no" response on the spot. I really did like him, but I didn't know him very well, and so wasn't attracted to him. He just didn't understand that I didn't KNOW if I wanted to sleep with him yet.... I tried so hard to explain, but he simply wasn't getting it. In the end I caved and had sex with him because (I know, I know) I felt like if I said no, he would take it as "Not ever!" and I'd never have another chance. I know this makes him sound like an a$$hole, but in fact he's quite lovely - I think this is an NT thing since it's happened to me so many times previously (the losing them by saying "not yet"). Although because of the situation (conflicting schedules) we haven't slept together since, we've spent more time together and I am attracted to him, but the whole thing is now tainted by this awful guilt I have over "jumping the gun". (Oh my goodness! That expression just took on a whole 'nother meaning for me! )

Today's society is so steeped in instant gratification that it has leaked into sex as well. So, so, so few men I meet would be willing to wait to get to know me before sex - in fact, this silent pressure of "now or never" has been the cause of initiation of three of my four so-called relationships. Why is it that waiting for more than a week has become so unacceptable?!? Ideally I would like to know a man for at least a couple months, but this just doesn't happen. It could also be the environment I meet them in, to be fair: all of my men (ha - "my" men) have been guys I work with. I'm a geologist and we are usually based on site in camps so you see people all day, every day, though not on a social or personal level. For me, knowing someone professionally is insufficient; perhaps that's the difference. Eh, maybe (probably!) it's as simple as the men SEE me every day, whether or not they actually interact with me, and the constant visual stimulus is enough?

I'm still sorting out how I feel about sex and how to handle myself in this world which I totally do not understand - I'm in my mid-twenties but have only been sexually active for a few years. To be honest, I kinda wish I'd never had sex since not once did I come away feeling better about myself than before. Whether or not I care about them, I have a habit of picking men who, by action or unintentional situation, seem to know just how to crush me. I have no idea how NT women bounce back from such things; I have friends who have gone through worse than I and though yes, they do bear the scars, they are willing to throw themselves into relationships (sometimes even with the same men!!) time and time again with just as much enthusiasm and hope. This baffles me. How can they forget how badly it ended the time before?

Apologies for the disjointed rambling; the entries in this thread are filled with so much careful thought and the benefit of so much experience that my posts seem like the little squeaky voice in a conversation that pipes out pointlessly, "Me too!" every now and again. I'm not able to contribute much in the way of great sweeping wisdoms - but many thanks to the women on this thread who do.

Since realising yesterday, ( many years after going gluten free ... duh, I am slow! ), that since beginning gluten-exclusion my sexual experience changed significantly, your remark makes a lot of sense to me, because that is exactly what I used to feel, as if I wasn't aware of my body, of what it wanted at all, so I had to go on mental stuff, whereas since gluten exclusion it is as if I began to be able to listen to my body rather than have to tune it out in order to be able to function, and so I have been more aware of sexual desire. What Outlier was saying about her desire being unstable. Absolutely that; I had no idea what it felt like to feel desire, to be sure of wanting sex at all; I used to feel attracted by someone's conversation/ideas, or humour or whatever, but of course this was a very bad guide to whether sex would be a good idea.

Since gluten exclusion, and being able to turn the volume up on signals from my body, ( it was no longer in a state of totally violent sensory-noise all the time ), I have had two of the most satisfying sexual relationships of my life, ( plus another, right after starting exclusion, which started better than usual; in fact I was amazed by how I seemed to feel real desire for a change. But like you I almost never used to be aware of feeling anything sexual; I would usually have preferred to carry on talking, because that was the buzz that I was getting, in the absence of physical excitement, or go and read a book!! !




I think that so long as I had almost completely switched off awareness of my body, because it was in such a painful/exhausting state of sensory stress that I had to in order to cope, I was missing all that sort of subliminal, non-conversational stimulation, but since excluding gluten, ( sporadically or for longer periods ), and entering into a very different relationship with my own body, one of hearing it, being able and ready to "be in it", I have begun to get a glimpse of what that sort of attraction is like. It's not the heady talking till the middle of the night which leads to good sex, or not necessarily, but the other kind of exchanges.


No, they're great. I was feeling like you, still do to some extent, because what people were saying was so powerful, and exact, and expressed subtle, almost unconscious experiences of things, that what I said seemed so fumbling too. I think the main thing is honesty. That's what I love on this thread; is people being ready to examine their sexual experience openly, and "admit" to what is virtually taboo in our society, which is not "enjoying" normal sex, or not finding it "natural" or "easy" at all.


Ditto. It's liberating and supportive and clarifying.

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Out of the 35 or so people that I have been to bed with, nearly 30 were "strangers", ( by which I mean someone that have met in the last few days, or not much more, and may or may not have had long conversations with, but definitely not someone I have known for a few weeks or months ), and the worst experiences were with the people I had had long conversations with, and/or thought I was in love with, because the abyss between the buzz and sense of connection I got from the conversation, and the disconnection I felt in bed with them was awful, like a dark icy cold emptiness, in which I felt nothing. Whereas with those strangers that I had barely exchanged a hundred words with, and never expected to, the sex was appropriate, completely in keeping. There was no shock of difference between the two kinds of connection. I was able to get off on almost autosexual dynamics, ( maybe a bit like millie has described ? ) the role-play of fantasy, which with someone I had been enjoying talking to I couldn't, and didn't want to either.


I almost never experienced desire, until cutting out gluten, or only in very overtly ( if unspoken ) role-play situations.


Until after cutting out gluten, ( ... this is so weird to realise, but at the same time totally unsurprising; after all sexuality is body based, aswell as mind, and I know how much difference cutting out gluten made to my relationship with my body ), I thought, wrongly without exception, that I "desired" people I loved talking to, and would then be confused to find myself having appalling sex with them, and better, ( if only fleetingly, in the short term ), sex with the people I had little or nothing in common with mentally, but had "flirted with" while drunk/stoned.

Since cutting out gluten I have felt sexual attraction instantly. Real physical excitement, which took me completely by surprise. I had barely talked with one guy and my body was just melting. It was WEIRD!


That's it exactly. I felt almost nothing as a result of touch; I was so so so far away from my body, having switched off most sensation/awareness of everything but pain, when was very young, that sex for me was all in the mind, and only "worked" if the right fantasy role-play ingredients were in place, and even then it wasn't enough to sustain things after a couple of times. Since cutting out gluten, re-opening communication with my body, sexual desire/excitement arises from my body too. Which seriously changed my sexual experience. Either super-intense and exciting, at "normal speed", if the role-play/fantasy dynamics are present, or super intense/absorbing/beautiful, but very very very slow, ( to avoid falling into the simplistic/role-play objectifying stuff ), if want to remain an individual, to continue seeing and relating to the other as an individual, rather than as a stereotype.


Totally. So much worry and self-criticism, and feelings of failure, for not enjoying sex like "everyone else"! ( as if "sex" was something "natural" which everybody should be able to do; which is the modern myth about it, rather than that it is a social construct, with rules about how we should do it, when, with whom, etc. )


I agree.


How long have you been excluding gluten now? Have you noticed a difference in your sexual experience since cutting it out?

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Wow, this is how you guys feel too? This is exactly how I feel! After spending hours last night on my post, typing it and retyping it, I felt frustrated that it didn´t quite express exactly what I wanted to say. I almost didn´t post it as I was worried that it was "lame". (I feel this way about a lot of my posts, by the way, and the day after I think "Oh God, what did I write?") Words can be so limiting: at least, that´s how I feel anyway. By the way, at the meetup in Avignon, I felt like my conversation was more halting and stilted than most people´s- (and for some people, English wasn´t even their native language). When I speak German, my conversation is even MORE halting and stilted, and literal, blah blah and so forth. I can write better than I speak, but it takes so long! Anyway, I´m really glad someone found my post helpful. But, I´m basically like you 2; I look at everybody´s else´s posts and am amazed at how accurate and verbally proficient you all are!

Ouinon, I too think there are some strange modern myths surrounding sex.
In a way, I think I was more stubborn and assertive than most regarding sex, because I would refuse to engage in acts I really did not want to, no matter the consequences for the relationship.

I also relate to Morgana's "bowling pin" description of people (which also generates an amusing mental image ). Without getting to know them, they are mostly physical shells, and I cannot be attracted by appearances alone.

I tend to see people in bits and have difficulty considering the whole. For instance, in the past, when someone hurt me, I was incapable of shifting my attention to the positive aspects about them and would see them as all bad. This has changed in the last year or so, and I constantly remind myself to consider the wider context.


Off topic, to update on the situation I mentioned concerning my career on page 12: I received the outcome of the long, drawn-out complaints procedures and am being granted everything I requested. Those higher up appear to be taking my side on the matter. This will enable me to get a few papers published in journals over the next year or so, increasing my chances of getting a job sometime in the future (if I choose to remain in the field, that is). For now, I have to figure out a way to obtain an income while writing. The news hasn't sunk in yet, but I am celebrating with wine!

I´ve been gluten free I think nearing 5 years now? I can´t say I´ve noticed it affecting my sex drive or my recognition of sexual feeling, though I have noticed it affecting other elements of my life- (and body).

I think I was born with a relatively high sex drive, and, as was mentioned earlier on this thread, I was aware of my sexuality at a very young age. At first, it was private and didn´t involve any other person. In fact, I never associated that with the feelings of sex or coupling. (We decided that this may be quite common among autistic people). As I grew older, my sexuality did involve other people, but in the form of fantasies as millie wrote about. I had many relationships (and sex!) in my mind. (One of the things I liked, and related to in the film "BenX"). When I finally had my first sexual experience, at age 22, I did it mainly because I felt embarrassed that I was still a virgin. I felt nothing, it lasted about 2 seconds- (I remember thinking literally "That was it?"), and it was incredibly disappointing in comparison to my fantasies. Since then, I notice my feelings of desire and my enjoyment or lack of enjoyment of sex have a LOT to do with psychology; in other words, rather than just being hormonal or biological, I believe that sexual feeling starts "in the head"- (which confirms that gluten could very well be a contributing factor, as gluten affects what´s happening in the brain too. However, I think exactly how gluten affects a person varies from individual to individual). I strongly suspect that 2 factors that affected my (lack of) sexual desire were 1) social anxiety and the inability to pick up or "feel" another person´s feelings, and 2) difficult experiences (including rejection). I noticed a HUGE lack of desire for awhile when I discovered just how conniving and selfish the rest of the human race can be. I think love, romantic feelings and the ability to enjoy sex and feel the feelings that go with it have a lot to do with fantasy and a certain innocence; in other words, I think it´s easier when you believe that people are innately "good". Of course, as greenlandgem suggested, NT women might be different in this regard- (I, too, have noticed how easily NT women can "bounce back", and how readily they become involved, as if they enjoy it! I also think this must take an extreme amount of self confidence, which I obviously don´t have; I usually feel shattered at the ends of relationships). I strongly suspect that bad experiences and rejections affected my desire at times, because it seemed directly related (timing wise) to events that were happening in my life, as well as thoughts in my head.

Another reason, too, is the possibility that the wisdom of the body was trying to alert me to the fact that this was not the right person, or that this was not the right time.

Yeah!! !

Congratulations. I think I´ll celebrate with some wine too.

I have FINALLY remembered a topic I've been meaning to bring up all week but which completely leaves my head whenever I log in!

This is related to fantasies, which is a subject Morgana has touched on recently and others have commented on, and also with the actual physical enjoyment of sex itself: basically, the head/body dichotomy mentioned by Morgana above.

I've described how I feel so detached during sex, as if it was happening to someone else. Don't get me wrong, when I truly like the person and trust them I do enjoy it... but more because I'm pleasing them, not because I'm actually pleased myself. And sometimes it feels nice. But that's just it: it feels "nice". Not amazing, not mind-blowing, not orgasmic or any of those things that sex is "supposed" to feel. While it might be "nice", I know that even if I had hours and hours to go (hilariously unrealistic concept), I would never reach orgasm.

However! Occasionally, as it probably does for most people, thoughts of sex pop into my head unbidden. Often this is in completely non-sexual environments, and I'm not even running through a fantasy (which I rarely, rarely do). When this happens, I can come far nearer to climax simply by my mental state (no hands! ) than I ever am when in bed with a man. It is completely bizarre, but in keeping with a trend I have noticed in myself: the idea of sex is far, far more arousing than actual sex. Does anyone else experience this?