Board index › General Discussion › General Autism Discussion

I think I might have been wrong...

Page 8 of 12 [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Sora
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,906
Location: Europe

01 Sep 2011, 9:24 am

littlelily613 wrote:
Sora wrote:
littlelily613 wrote:
Yep. My psychs always told me that symptoms MUST be prevelant in childhood. If you could not qualify for a diagnosis as a toddler/child, then you cannot qualify for one as an adult because autism does not appear in adulthood.


Though the question of whether someone qualified for diagnosis in early childhood doesn't quite point out two matters of consequence:

1. present symptoms need to be observed and identified as abnormal behaviours in order to (later) be recognised as "prevalent"
2. a child's impairments become noticeable only if impaired abilities are required to be used, certain behaviours are requested/demanded and requests/demands are not met by the child or not met as consistently as expected at that age.

One might assume that pretty much all parents are capable of noticing symptoms commonly known as "red flags" and capable of providing a fairly normal environment in which impairments are noticed but there's still a disturbing amount of parents who fail at this to some extent.


I think you missed my point.

My point is:

Say if a person HAD been evaluated as a child (theoretically speaking, not they actually WERE evaluated), if they absolutely could NOT qualify as a person with ASD, then they CANNOT qualify as an adult. No amount of loopholes will make it so. If a person is NT as a child, then a person is NT as an adult.


Ah, yes! I wasn't sure whether you had written your post with this in mind or were thinking of something else.

Thanks for clarifying this and I agree with you about it.


_________________
Autism + ADHD
______
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett


Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

01 Sep 2011, 1:27 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Could this scenario exist within those guidelines? Or is such a neurological composition impossible, or exist enough in numbers, to be known clinically?
Has this passed through the doctors' door?


What I'm responding to is mostly this division of NTs having good theory of mind and autistic people having none. I suspect it's more of a spectrum. Also, whether this is really the core deficit in autism, or just really common.

I also think that NTs tend to have really horrible ToM when it comes to interpreting autistic people.



Mdyar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,516

01 Sep 2011, 1:51 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Could this scenario exist within those guidelines? Or is such a neurological composition impossible, or exist enough in numbers, to be known clinically?
Has this passed through the doctors' door?


What I'm responding to is mostly this division of NTs having good theory of mind and autistic people having none. I suspect it's more of a spectrum. Also, whether this is really the core deficit in autism, or just really common.

I also think that NTs tend to have really horrible ToM when it comes to interpreting autistic people.


At first glance, yeah, I could see that. Everyone is used to each other in their neighborhoods.

I think a person would, going through several trials with someone^, get the sense of what was grasped and missed, and move it to work -to learn the code.

NT ToM:
I've seen NT men who miss ToM quite often. Unable to predict , unable to read if their spouse is tired, hungry. Unable to tell if someone is bored. In fact I'd bet the majority of men have mediocre social intelligence. You hear" OH yeah," a lot. :lol:

On the other side, NT woman read these same very things like a hawk.

Just a generalization.



SammichEater
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Mar 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,903

01 Sep 2011, 1:55 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Could this scenario exist within those guidelines? Or is such a neurological composition impossible, or exist enough in numbers, to be known clinically?
Has this passed through the doctors' door?


What I'm responding to is mostly this division of NTs having good theory of mind and autistic people having none. I suspect it's more of a spectrum. Also, whether this is really the core deficit in autism, or just really common.

I also think that NTs tend to have really horrible ToM when it comes to interpreting autistic people.


At first glance, yeah, I could see that. Everyone is used to each other in their neighborhoods.

I think a person would, going through several trials with someone^, get the sense of what was grasped and missed, and move it to work -to learn the code.

NT ToM:
I've seen NT men who miss ToM quite often. Unable to predict , unable to read if their spouse is tired, hungry. Unable to tell if someone is bored. In fact I'd bet the majority of men have mediocre social intelligence. You hear" OH yeah," a lot. :lol:

On the other side, NT woman read these same very things like a hawk.

Just a generalization.


And this is where the idea of the extreme male brain theory comes from. It is true, generally.


_________________
Remember, all atrocities begin in a sensible place.


Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

01 Sep 2011, 2:18 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Could this scenario exist within those guidelines? Or is such a neurological composition impossible, or exist enough in numbers, to be known clinically?
Has this passed through the doctors' door?


What I'm responding to is mostly this division of NTs having good theory of mind and autistic people having none. I suspect it's more of a spectrum. Also, whether this is really the core deficit in autism, or just really common.

I also think that NTs tend to have really horrible ToM when it comes to interpreting autistic people.


At first glance, yeah, I could see that. Everyone is used to each other in their neighborhoods.

I think a person would, going through several trials with someone^, get the sense of what was grasped and missed, and move it to work -to learn the code.


It seems like many researchers don't bother to "learn the code." Also, many clinicians.

As far as NT men and women go, I've seen enough women fail at ToM too. Men are just more blatant and women tend to be socialized to be attentive to other people's needs.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

01 Sep 2011, 2:19 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Also, whenever autistic people pass theory of mind tests, they make the tests increasingly complex until they outstrip the ability to hold all the information in working memory - which is usually less than what a neurotypical can manage, and when they finally get failures on these complex social scenarios, they say "See? Still impaired."


I think the difference between us and them is that we have hold these things in working memory to work out all the steps through conscious analysis. NTs don't even need the working memory. They've got their automatic process at work.

The thing is complex social scenarios in a test must be presented verbally. Autistics and NTs alike must convert the verbal description of the situation and this requires working memory.



Mdyar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,516

01 Sep 2011, 3:15 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Could this scenario exist within those guidelines? Or is such a neurological composition impossible, or exist enough in numbers, to be known clinically?
Has this passed through the doctors' door?


What I'm responding to is mostly this division of NTs having good theory of mind and autistic people having none. I suspect it's more of a spectrum. Also, whether this is really the core deficit in autism, or just really common.

I also think that NTs tend to have really horrible ToM when it comes to interpreting autistic people.


At first glance, yeah, I could see that. Everyone is used to each other in their neighborhoods.

I think a person would, going through several trials with someone^, get the sense of what was grasped and missed, and move it to work -to learn the code.


It seems like many researchers don't bother to "learn the code." Also, many clinicians.

As far as NT men and women go, I've seen enough women fail at ToM too. Men are just more blatant and women tend to be socialized to be attentive to other people's needs.


I don't know Verdandi, I think if someone gave me a Barby and Ken doll to play with at 5, and pit this against "a train set," I would set them on the tracks to run them over. :lol:



SammichEater
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Mar 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,903

01 Sep 2011, 3:21 pm

Mdyar wrote:
I don't know Verdandi, I think if someone gave me a Barby and Ken doll to play with at 5, and pit this against "a train set," I would set them on the tracks to run them over. :lol:


That's what I would have done. Although if the train were to get derailed, I wouldn't do it again.


_________________
Remember, all atrocities begin in a sensible place.


Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

01 Sep 2011, 3:22 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
It seems like many researchers don't bother to "learn the code." Also, many clinicians.

As far as NT men and women go, I've seen enough women fail at ToM too. Men are just more blatant and women tend to be socialized to be attentive to other people's needs.


I don't know Verdandi, I think if someone gave me a Barby and Ken doll to play with at 5, and pit this against "a train set," I would set them on the tracks to run them over. :lol:


I don't understand what you're getting at. I mean, aside from humor?



Mdyar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,516

01 Sep 2011, 3:25 pm

SammichEater wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
I don't know Verdandi, I think if someone gave me a Barby and Ken doll to play with at 5, and pit this against "a train set," I would set them on the tracks to run them over. :lol:


That's what I would have done. Although if the train were to get derailed, I wouldn't do it again.


:lol:



Mdyar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,516

01 Sep 2011, 3:29 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
It seems like many researchers don't bother to "learn the code." Also, many clinicians.

As far as NT men and women go, I've seen enough women fail at ToM too. Men are just more blatant and women tend to be socialized to be attentive to other people's needs.


I don't know Verdandi, I think if someone gave me a Barby and Ken doll to play with at 5, and pit this against "a train set," I would set them on the tracks to run them over. :lol:


I don't understand what you're getting at. I mean, aside from humor?


Let me test ToM with you: What do you think I mean? :P



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

01 Sep 2011, 3:29 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
It seems like many researchers don't bother to "learn the code." Also, many clinicians.

As far as NT men and women go, I've seen enough women fail at ToM too. Men are just more blatant and women tend to be socialized to be attentive to other people's needs.


I don't know Verdandi, I think if someone gave me a Barby and Ken doll to play with at 5, and pit this against "a train set," I would set them on the tracks to run them over. :lol:


I don't understand what you're getting at. I mean, aside from humor?


Let me test ToM with you: What do you think I mean? :P


If I had any idea I wouldn't be asking. All I know is that you'd prefer a train set over Ken and Barbie.



Mdyar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,516

01 Sep 2011, 3:53 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
It seems like many researchers don't bother to "learn the code." Also, many clinicians.

As far as NT men and women go, I've seen enough women fail at ToM too. Men are just more blatant and women tend to be socialized to be attentive to other people's needs.


I don't know Verdandi, I think if someone gave me a Barby and Ken doll to play with at 5, and pit this against "a train set," I would set them on the tracks to run them over. :lol:


I don't understand what you're getting at. I mean, aside from humor?


Let me test ToM with you: What do you think I mean? :P


If I had any idea I wouldn't be asking. All I know is that you'd prefer a train set over Ken and Barbie.


I believe there is more to ToM differences, than "training" by culture. That there is more to "NT woman" showing better empathy or sympathy (ToM)-- they don't consciously decide to do this at some point in their lives, as to practice this, exclusively as from a pressure from the outside. It comes from the heart, though it arises from culture.



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

01 Sep 2011, 5:34 pm

Mdyar wrote:
I believe there is more to ToM differences, than "training" by culture. That there is more to "NT woman" showing better empathy or sympathy (ToM)-- they don't consciously decide to do this at some point in their lives, as to practice this, exclusively as from a pressure from the outside. It comes from the heart, though it arises from culture.


I don't see the connection between this and your train joke.

What I am saying though is that women are put under a lot of pressure to be empathic and attentive to others. I do not think there is a "conscious decision to do this" and I am not sure how when I said "socialization" that implied consciously deciding anything. There are a lot of things people do that they do not consciously decide to do, yet are part of socialization and upbringing - and some of that socialization is itself not a conscious deliberate action, but absorbing cultural values and assumptions from being around other people who express and act upon them.



SammichEater
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Mar 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,903

01 Sep 2011, 6:41 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I don't see the connection between this and your train joke.


Me neither. Was it supposed to be a joke? I was being serious, as that's the kind of stuff I did as a kid.


_________________
Remember, all atrocities begin in a sensible place.


Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

01 Sep 2011, 8:10 pm

SammichEater wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I don't see the connection between this and your train joke.


Me neither. Was it supposed to be a joke? I was being serious, as that's the kind of stuff I did as a kid.


He used an emoticon, so I took it as one.