AS vs. NLD

Post Reply New Topic

Technically, you also must have social problems and motor coordination problems, but these are also common in AS. It is true that someone with AS who also has visual-spatial problems, also meets criteria for NLD, and a person with NLD who has repetitive behaviors, also meets criteria for AS.

Is AS a sub-set of Autism or separate from it? Is NLD a form of Autism? Is NLD connected to AS in any way? Has NLD been proven to have different causes than Autism or AS? All in all, I guess nothing is known for sure. I fit all the symptoms for NLD to a t. And have some symptoms of AS too That's all I know.

But one thing is for sure: NLD and AS are dyametrically opposed regarding visio-spatial abilities. And Autism (at least low functioning) implies cognitive retardation. So there ARE very big differences among them.

I think AS is NLD with sensory issues and special interests and, in some cases, visual-spatial strengths. I think NLD and SPD are present in almost every autist.

"While researcher Uta Frith describes individuals with AS as "having a dash of autism" (Frith, 1991), Klin and his colleagues demonstrate that the cognitive profiles of people with autism and Asperger Syndrome differ significantly (Klin, Volkmar, Sparrow, Cicchetti, & Rourke, 1995). Individuals with autism display a relative strength in performance abilities with a relative weakness in verbal tasks, while individuals with Asperger Syndrome show the exact opposite pattern: verbal strength with a relative weakness in performance. Also, while autistic persons are more than content to be loners, Aspies actively seek out social interaction, although with little success. Asperger Syndrome has been conceptualized as a "Non-Verbal Learning Disability" (Klin, et al., 1995). A comparison of NLD and AS individuals revealed 20 out of 21 similarities, including a verbal over spatial discrepancy. (Klin, et al., 1995). Stephen Bauer, M.D., M.P.H., Director, The Developmental Unit, The Genesee Hospital, Rochester, New York, writes: 'it is not at all clear that Asperger syndrome is just a milder form of autism or that the conditions are linked by anything more than their broad clinical similarities.' "
http://www.nldline.com/yvonna.htm


If I remember right, NLD seems to be brought on by certain head injuries or viral infections, though that doesn't rule out a genetic predisposition. Autism and AS, on the other hand, are lifelong things, as far as I know. So the only "connections" between AS and NLD would appear to be the fact that their symptoms overlap so much that they look like they might have a common cause. Which isn't to say that they do have a common cause at all.


I concur. It's still a very nebulous subject.


And although practically everything I can find points to my being definitely Aspie and definitely not NLD, I still don't feel that I know, in the sense that I know that I have two hands. Sometimes I wonder whether, in a century or so, they'll see our belief in these syndromes rather like I see the mediaeval belief in magic.


Yep. The next DSM will make interesting reading, if they've added NLD to it by then.

To my mind, there may be at least three realities:

1. Absolute reality - the absolute truth, impossible to know. I often suspect it doesn't exist, but somehow without feeling that it's there, I doubt that I could function at all.

2. Working reality - We don't really know the absolute truth but we have to assume something, so we put our money on our best guess and hope that if we turn out to be wrong, we'll find out before we do anything really stupid.

3. Legal reality - the law is sometimes an ass, but it has a powerful kick, so I have to reckon with its assertions and definitions, though I know that they don't always add up.

I'd best shut up before I obfuscate the debate any further

Last edited by ToughDiamond on 16 Jul 2009, 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you, friends.

When is the next DSM coming out? I really need social security help...and I'm not sure I'll be blessed with an AS diagnosis, but with an NLD one.

"The fifth edition ("DSM-V") is currently in consultation, planning and preparation, due for publication in May 2012. An early draft will be released for comment in 2009."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic ... _Disorders

What's ironic is that those with AS tend to have a unique obsession. Lets say it's trains. There is no intent on the part of the Aspie to be a conductor or is there? The truth about this obsession is that the individual likes something that is an uncommon like for another. It also doesn't usually involve a vocational interest. Lastly, the individual talks about it and people ignore him because they are disinterested with such a mundane topic, but the Aspie either gets upset or doesn't realize that he has turned off others because he has spent so much time building in on that obsession.

So what about an obsession that involves an occupational interest (i.e. money or weather) in which something is more of a passion or something that is something everyone likes (i.e. sports fanatics)? Is the line drawn at the obsession itself, the type of the obsession, or whether the individual speaks to others about the obsession? Also, is a month, 3 months, or a 1 year long enough or does it need to go on be 2-5 years? At what age must the first obsession manifest itself? Can the obsession come from someone's suggestion rather than one's own thought process? Also can a person with AS learn not to talk about it such as to appear like not to have AS? It appears in DSM IV that they were very vague as to the term obsession such that there is no definitive way to compare it to a passion or "okay" interest that someone might have. I realize though that AS isn't just about obsessive interests, but it is a contributing factor.

What happens with a person with Asperger's gets bored to a particular thing? Is it just that it takes longer or are we not supposed to literally get bored to something? That doesn't seem to make any sense.

What happens if you had empathy at 5 years old? Can that understanding mean you see their point of view or does it stop at sympathy which isn't a part of empathy at all? Just curious.

AS and NLD are very similar, but if you have moderate NLD and mild AS, it seems ironic that your AS diagnosis takes prominence. It should be whatever affects you more. I think in the literature that AS is a type of NLD but NLD is not a type of AS.

Very interesting debate, here, though. Thanks for all the info. I just wanted to spit it back there to see if there is a consensus as to what you believe is an obsessive interest vs. an interest involving vocation or a common interest shared by NTs and if it even matters the context of the obsession. Lastly, if someone isn't supposed to be good in sports, does that solely mean an athletic sense (can the individual play horse in basketball well but not the best dribbler) or does it mean that the person cannot find the target (in this case the basket)? I am curious because I've always been at least a decent basketball shooter. I wasn't a fan of the individual sports as I found them to be too boring and one-sided. I really liked the team aspect of the sports and was pretty competitive.

While I probably wasn't good enough to play varsity sports, I was definitely good enough for Division II or JV and played in those leagues very well for both soccer and basketball.

^
I see you're diagnosed with "other autistic spectrum disorder" which might account for your somewhat more "normal" interest in sport than an Aspie would typically have.

I was diagnosed with AS using the AAA criteria which is supposed to be more stringent thatn DSM-IV, and there wasn't much asked about my special interests. I said that I tended to find it easier to pursue my interest alone rather than being part of a group - I'm a musician and although I love the idea of being in a band, and have done that, I get "better" results when I record alone using multi-track technology, and always find myself going back to that method. When I mentioned that my tendency to obsess over tiny details (perfectionism) might be a waste if time, the diagnostician suggested that somebody with enough power of observation would probably appreciate the extra quality and that there probably wasn't anything intrinsically wrong or pointless about my pedantic behaviour with my special interests. The idea was that it takes two to make a disability.

I'd expect that a neurotypical's interest in sport could be seen as every bit as obsessional and narrowly-focussed as an Aspie's interest, but the neurotypical would be sharing it with lots of fellow-fanatics, who would feel the same way, whereas an Aspie would be more of a loner about it, the fascination she/he felt would be quite rigid, whereas the NT would be able to bend towards what others prefer. So if I'm lucky, I'll find other musicians who agree with my preferences (or maybe I'll just foist those preferences onto them and hope they don't get too bored with me), but if I don't, then I'm unfulfilled in the group and simply have to trudge on alone with my ideas. If I were into sport, I'd probably be an unbearable prima donna who was only tolerated because I was a brilliant striker or something. I've known social success and I've been in a band which seemed to work quite well, but the tolerance of the other people involved was vital to that success.

Clumsiness (among other things) keeps me out of sport - I literally couldn't hit a barn door with a football - but clumsiness isn't part of the diagnostic criteria, so it's feasible that an Aspie could be highly skilled at some sports things.

An Aspie obsession could be a good vocation and a lot of money could be made of it, but it all depends on whether or not the Aspie happens to find their niche in the world of work. If the working conditions are Aspie-friendly, if the obsession happens to produce something that will sell like hot cakes, fine. Except that if the AS doesn't impair your performance in the world of work, a diagnosis might not be made, because basically your life has to be on the rocks if the diagnostic criteria are to be satisfied. So paradoxically, every step the intelligent Aspie takes to adopt coping strategies is a step away from a positive diagnosis, though obviously if the Aspie is living a satisfying life, then a DX is not needed.

I've become obsessed with techniques and ideas that were first suggested by others. Indeed, music isn't exactly my own invention. I guess it's a matter of luck whether a thing begins to appeal to me. Certainly if I force myself to take an interest in a thing (which I don't do lightly as it's so painful), then once I've acquired some knowledge about it, I can often "make it my own." But once I'm up and running with "their" set tasks, I have to be given the freedom to do it my own way, the executive control has to be mine alone or it's sheer torture. Luckily good managers like to be able to leave workers to use their own judgement, to "give them their head." It saves them the effort of constantly intervening, so they can get on with other things.

When asked whether I ever got bored with my repetitive patterns of behaviour and hobbies, I said that I sometimes did, and would make changes occasionally, but that I'd have to consider those changes carefully, just do them one at a time, and would usually balk at the idea of anybody else imposing a change onto my way of life. I still got the DX.

I wasn't asked much about empathy, apart from the questionnaires such as the AQ test, which were all in the present tense, and I don't think my empathy as a child was looked at. I don't recall ever being able to easily understand another's feelings when I've never been in the same situation. I suppose that if a person had ever been able to do that, then they wouldn't be Aspie, as it's a lifelong impairment, though tracking down those events at my age is likely to be fraught with false memories and misinterpretations.

Thank you, TD.

The DSM is like the Bible, everyone interprets it different and it causes all the separations.

Like whitetiger, I have both NLD and AS. I was diagnosed with AS three years ago and NLD a year ago. I had both an IQ test and achievement test performed, and it was very obvious from those (specifically the IQ test) that NLD was present. I suspected NLD for a long, long time, though. Basically, the only time I address my NLD is when I'm having difficulty with right-left differentiation, executive dysfunction in not understanding multiple verbal instructions, and mathematical/visual-spatial problems. Those situations are really the only times my NLD is evident. The rest of my symptoms are pure AS. What angers me is that my NLD went unnoticed until I was an adult. I can even see my AS being unnoticed, since it wasn't well known about when I was a child, but I clearly showed a learning disability. From childhood until the present time, I consistently show a major gap between verbal and mathematical skills, commonly getting in the 60th to 70th percentile for math abilities and the 99th percentile in verbal abilities. But everybody in school ignored the blatant problem since I still met the "benchmark" for math. And then they'd wonder why I'd get low grades on math tests, despite having studied for hours.
-OddDuckNash99-

Can prosopagnosia be a symptom of NLD or if I have Prosopagnosia then I'm surely something else apart from NLD?

you should look up temporal lobe epilepsy as well. It can leave a person with almost no visual ability.

Personally, I am very happy that I have been able to do well in life, but because of the economy, it's been rough. I had difficulties with fine-motor coordination but never had problems with sports. Using a baseball cap helped me learn how to make eye-contact.