A very selfish and manipulative nature - AS trait?

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my understanding is that sociopath is the "old" common term for antisocial personality disorder (ASD). ASD and NPD have quite a bit of overlap. NPD's NEED to have people admire them, but from what I've read, ASD's don't care. NPD's actively cultivate a social group for admiration or to use to prop up their rather fragile egos.

No, That's a classic *****. Anyone, even an NT, can be a classic run of the mill *****. Either way no one likes them, unless they are unaware of their off-putting behaviour. THEN they could be an aspie with other disorders or comorbids.

I think I'm personally more manipulative than selfish. Although I'm really too lazy to be manipulative most of the time. It's a lot of work.

I'm guessing they are unrelated. I don't know if it's a good guess.

Yes. Antisocial personality is the modern name for sociopathy.

I do not see any resemblance between the two whatsoever.

Traits such as being glib, lack of remorse shame or guilt, pathological lying, being unable to love, being callous promiscuous or criminal are commonly associated with sociopathy and do not see what such traits have to do with AS in particular.

to answer the question
I may be selfish, (although I try not to be), but I lack the competencies necessary for successful manipulation.

Says it all really. One can be socially dysfunctional without being sociopathic, surely.

I find I spend my life in a sort of amiable befuddlement, socially speaking. Lit by occasional conflagrations of rage.

I'm gradually getting better at asking for help, but there's not a lot of response.

oops, just realized I put ASD where I should have put APD (antisocial personality disorder).

Wouldn't the lack of social understanding mean that it would be almost impossible for an Aspie to be very manipulative? When i think of manipulative, i think of someone who understands people GREATLY, and uses that understanding to mess with peoples' minds to get what they want. That would be like the exact opposite of an aspie. I think it's like the "Empathy vs. Sympathy" thing.. Aspies lack empathy, but usually not sympathy. Sociopaths lack sympathy, but usually not empathy. Their empathy is what makes so many of them successful manipulators. I think the extent of most aspies' "manipulative" ability would be to keep on and on about something until the other person just gives in(that's me, anyway! ask my parents!).. No mind games.
And i don't really see how being selfish has to do with AS, either. I see how the APPEARANCE of selfishness would, due to lack of social understanding/emotional reciprocity/etc., but not actual selfishness(not any more than any other person, anyway). From what i understand, the "selfish" idea of aspies has more to do with AS/NT misunderstandings than anything But maybe i'm wrong.

On a side note.. I would think that, due to this whole "selfish" view some people have of Aspies, a lot of people who are ACTUALLY sociopaths or narcissists might be mistakingly diagnosed with AS, by people who don't have an in-depth understanding of it.. They might just not care about anyone but themselves, and then the under-informed school psychologist says "aha! lack of empathy! it's aspergers!"... Because an aspie being good at manipulating people kind of makes no sense at all.

I don't consider myself selfish at all. Once people actually get to know me, they realize that i'm not selfish. But it might sometimes appear that i am, because i can forget to respond to certain little social things and i don't look affected in the normal way by other peoples' misfortunes. Doesn't mean i care less than an NT(i probably care more!), but the way to show it correctly just doesn't come to me. I think i'm making progress in finding my own ways to show it, though. Like my mom doesn't like that i don't like to give her hugs and that i don't usually express my feelings.. But i'll try to show her i care by picking up something for her at the store that i heard her mention. One time when she was obviously VERY distressed, crying and talking about how bad she felt, i even managed to go over and initiate a hug, even if it was rather robotic. That meant a lot to her, since i don't usually do things like that. Yeah...

That's me alright. I have a great understanding of other people's minds, intentions etc. Putting myself in another's shoes is what I do to a great extent. It renders me a master manipulator as well as it opens an insight to psychology, social psychology etc. I think the latter one is the good part. However as I wrote previously, my sociopathic acts are restricted with my inability to socialize as an aspie. I can control people but I cant make them love me, I dont intend it at all. No gestures, no lies. I am very good at giving advice even in very delicate situations but I cant condolence people. No physical interactions or "courtings" as you say. I prefer to "command" people which I believe is the "aspie" way of directing people.

I think that also the very logical and constantly analyzing nature of asperger keeps me from becoming a downright sociopath. It is like the brain is aware of its sociopathic tendencies and usually supresses them. The fact I've always seen myself as a "good and reasonable person" justifies that I have somewhat control and consciousness of the sociopathic urges.

It would be great if an aspie with sociopathy comes and shares his/her ideas. I am very confused since the last night

Now i'm really confused. You said you have a really good understanding of what people think and everything AND you're an aspie?
Maybe i'm missing something.

It doesnt work as you imagine. While interacting, I hardly sense any emotion, gesture, bad intention, jokes,. I am usually just as confused as you are while in social intercourse. It is when I am left alone the simulating of another individual occurs. It is like you are at his/her position and the data you have about that individual helps to theorize his/her possible actions, reactions, thoughts. When I am with people, I am really helpless and quite unwise. It is later that what really happened and what was intended occurs to me. This "manipulating and anticipating" skill doesnt help me with/while social relations at all. It is not a social skill (at least for me), it works as some sort of intelligence (I of CIA).

Last edited by decoder on 18 Jul 2009, 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Oh, that's interesting. I guess that does make some sense.

I don't think the "theory of mind" hypothesis really gets down to the bottom of what makes people with AS behave in a way that may appear selfish, but there's certainly something true in it. Whatever it is, I imagine that I (along with many of us) think and reason in a more "selfish" fashion. I can see how, as a result, I may come across as manipulative because I may be more inclined to lead conversations and groups of people on my own terms. One difference is that I can't imagine that I'm very good at being manipulative.

The distinction between being passively selfish and actively selfish that someone mentioned seems to be important. I don't get any pleasure out of manipulating other people, it's not something I actively do.

While I'm sure there are SOME autistic sociopaths, it's not that simple a statistic; many of the characteristics contradict each other. Sociopaths tend to be charismatic. There are, perhaps, a few charismatic autistic, but not many. Charisma requires ability to be what people want you to be, which isn't exactly a trait common in autistic.
To be manipulative, you have to be able to judge people's reactions to things as you go, and behave in ways and say things that alters how people act towards you and towards what you want to manipulate them about. It's just not something most autistic are capable of. Perhaps there are autistic who wish they were manipulative and who try to manipulate others, but they wouldn't be very good at it. Sociopaths recognize what people want and how they feel very easilly; that's the basis of manipulative. It requires extraordinary people skills.

I don't know about y'all, but I'm not as convincing when I'm telling the TRUTH as a sociopath is when they're lying.

ahahahahahaha. I know what you mean.

"....look me in the eye when you say that!"

I have been accused of doing things that were manipulative..and possibly selfish because I lacked the right kind of empathy and TOM that would have helped me better to do the right thing....But I did not deliberately set out to be manipulative and selfish...also, in at least one specific event I am referring to, I was also being manipulated.

I can be selfish about certain very narrow aspects of my life and manipulative so as to preserve my perceived rights to those narrow aspects...but that is about it. When I am being manipulative, I am manipulative in the way that a runaway train is manipulative.

I have no desire to do it just for fun.