Isn't schizoid and avoident personality disorder Autism?

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So, I do realize this post was from several years back. Anyhow…

I read portions of Stephen M. Johnson’s book. Particularly the section on schizoid. As an aside, this was a very dense book and quite difficult for me to read (and stay focused on the material).

Anyhow, when I read the book (this time last year, at the time I was investigating Aspergers), I was thinking that I might be schizoid. My question is this. How does one know if you were:



Sometimes, I wonder what caused my early emotional wounds. Was it my inability to connect to others (as I felt disconnected as a child)? Or, was it the fact that I felt unloved (my mom was quite loving while my dad was not at all)?

During my diagnosis, the one thing that likely swayed the Psychologist one way (versus the other), was issues with cognitive processing (specifically with dealing with complex, unstructured situations).

"Getting yourself diagnosed with avoidant personality disorder? Why is it so important to you to have this diagnosis that you would go in search of a Dr. to give you the diagnosis you feel more comfortable with? Is it not the Doctors job to evaluate you and determine your diagnosis? What if you are the one who is incorrect? What is the benefit to you for having this specific diagnosis? As scrambled up as my mind and personalities are, I would not wish my issues on any other human being, regardless of how it may benefit them. For sure I am not going in search of some other issues to label myself with.

Isn't schizoid and avoident personality disorder Autism?

No, in fact research in various areas have been observing more distinctions between them. A recent study found in Psychology Today Findings Confirm Diametric Predictions (<-link) observed that they are in fact at opposite ends.

I actually just wrote this post today

From my understanding - and you should take this with a grain of salt - the schizoid person feels metaphysically empty, so they search for things in life to fill that emptiness, e.g. food, drugs, cars, clothes, a new job. They hope that each new "thing" will save them from an unconscious sense of impending doom. They live life with an existential restlessness - everywhere they are, they wish they were somewhere else. Ever been in contact with a person who, for some reason, seemed like they "weren't all there?" or weren't present in the moment? Probably a Schizoid. Schizoids are the maladaptive daydreamers, which is a coping mechanism that allows them to mentally escape their harsh environment into a rich, fantasy world of the mind. In essence, they don't feel at home in the world (I explain why further down). They could be called the wandering "lost souls" of the world...

You would know if you were unwanted by understanding your relationship to your parents. Schizoid characters are "scared out of their skins" at an early age. Their bodily energy retreats inward: they have pale skin, a skeletal-like body structure and muscles (very bony), a weak, unassertive voice, a passive attitude toward life, a very "still" appearance (i.e. as children they'd learned to stifle their cries, desires, and primal need for affection because they were too demanding for their parent(s), and thus as adults they have a fear of making similar demands on others, so they navigate throughout the world very quietly so as not to make a sound or ruffle any feathers - also represented in their "mask-like" facial expression. They're apprehensive to show their emotions. When you speak to them, their eyes always seem flighty and unfocused, as if they have one foot in this world and one foot in another - another example of their life force turning away from the external world out of fear and retreating into a safer inner experience. Like those with Aspergers, they speak in a flat, monotonous voice, but for a different reason - they aren't necessarily "hyper-logical," they've just learned to repress their life force, their enthusiasm because as children their presence was too much for their parents to handle.

Personally, I thought I had Aspergers, but I'm coming to believe I'm schizoid with non-verbal learning disorder and/or dyspraxia, which could seem like Aspergers to the untrained eye, i.e. I have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly in speech, I'm physically clumsy, and on top of all that I'm extremely introverted, shy, and in a world of my own. But I'm coming to realize I don't have Aspergers because if anything I'm oversensitive to the reactions of others (a coping mechanism developed by Schizoids in response to an unstable parent(s)) and so I withdraw from others to avoid re-injuring my early childhood wound and my deepest fear - that I don't belong in the material world, that fundamentally I am flawed and unwanted. This life-long pattern of avoidance has impaired my social skills and, along with my dyspraxia, leaves me feeling like I'm on "the wrong planet," - but in reality I probably have no fundamental inability to read facial expressions or emotions. In fact, when I'm with people I'm comfortable with, I have a unique ability to connect with them emotionally. Maybe, if anything, I have a light dusting of autism or a moderate case of non-verbal learning disorder.

With that said, Schizoids may have been highly sensitive persons as children or quite empathetic, and because of an improper upbringing were wounded more severely than, say, a more thick-skinned person or relative would be. OR... the Schizoid character came out of the womb without above-average sensitivity but, for some reason, the parent(s) used him/her as a scapegoat for the parent(s) unresolved emotional issues - this is how I think it was for me. I was the middle child and much less aggressive and oppositional than my older brother, so my father used me as a scapegoat. I learned early on that I had to repress my personality, make no demands on others, and assume that I wasn't really wanted, that my voice wasn't worthy of being considered.

My relationship to my parents was similar to what you said - my mother was very loving but my father very cold. My father used to "fly off the handle" around me as a kid. I was a very warm and loving child and very sensitive, but because my father was of the opposite nature (because he never received adequate love from his parents) he unconsciously "beat the life" out of me.

Thus, that's why schizoids have a flighty, spacey appearance, like they could be carried away by the wind at anytime - because they have no roots; their concrete relationship to reality has been eroded. They often revert to spiritual practices because that's where they find true comfort.

Now, like anything else, Schizoid is a spectrum disorder. Forget the DSM classification which simply tries to cluster certain behaviours (hence why Schizoid and Aspergers can be confused). With that said, you can be totally isolated from your emotions and relationships to others (severe Schizoid), or you can be at the more mild end and simply suffer from social anxiety or avoidant personality disorder, i.e. still desiring relationships but fearing them due to this early wound that continues to make you perceive others as a possible threat. So anyone with social anxiety could be said to be on the Schizoid spectrum, according to "character styles" psychology.

So Aspergers and Schizoid seem like similar disorders using the DSM model of classification because it simply pays mind to superficial behaviours - and not their deeply-rooted etiology, i.e. how and why those behaviours arose in the first place. In the case of those with Aspergers, it was a result of their being relatively socially blind (for lack of a better phrase), and for those with Schizoid, their being socially fearful.

You said you have difficulty dealing with complex, unstructured situations, do you mind elaborating?

Also... anyone who wants to read more on this perspective can do so here: http://www.energeticsinstitute.com.au/p ... izoid.html

Last edited by RaspyAspie on 22 Mar 2014, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's really interesting. I learned about pre-pulse inhibition and how ppl with schizophrenia show less PPI in my neuro-psychology class when I was doing my undergrad degree, so ASDers have a higher PPI response or however they phrase it? Well, might have, the study has to be replicated, it's just one study. That makes so much sense to me though and I have a very extreme startle response to loud noises (and unexpected touch but that's not relevant). My mum and I were talking about this recently because she was saying that I'd have to not get startled by loud noises while driving if I learn. I freeze and flinch and sometimes shout when I hear them and if I did that in a car that would be very dangerous.

I wonder if you can do a differential diagnosis between the autism and schizophrenia spectra in children by using this, along with looking at self-disorders (using the Examination of Anomalous Self-Experience)?

@RaspyAspie: I think people can be oversensitive to certain nonverbal signals while not being able to pick up on the more subtle ones (or not all types). Plus, their theory of mind can be impaired at the same time, so signals can be misinterpreted easily. No harsh environmental factors needed by default (but such factors may contribute to a worse outcome, or can be the only cause). In other words, I can't see why ASD symptomatology and later developing schizoid (or other) personality can't co-exist "synergically" (one making worse the other) in one person. Question is, which part is more significant (clinically)? (S)PD, ASD, or both?

Oh, yes, I agree. I think both ASD and SPD can certainly co-exist, I was just trying to further differentiate the two. So as you said, a person can be born with HFA but have an unsympathetic parent(s) - or misread non-verbal signals due to an impaired theory of mind - and suffer psychological wounding, giving rise to schizoid tendencies. In another case, a person with Aspergers could grow up in a nurturing, supportive environment and not become personality disordered. So it's important to separate the two, even though it's tempting to focus on their similarities.

It's also important to note that schizoid tendencies seem to surface in early adulthood, and Aspie tendencies in early childhood. A Schizoid person could go through high school and college and seem relatively normal, but as soon as they're thrust into the world of adult responsibility - getting involved in intimate relationships, steady jobs - they existentially freak out and hit the panic button. Suddenly, all that repressed childhood pain comes rising to the surface, erupting like a volcano. Not having had the opportunity to feel secure with intimacy and their personal identity, their inability to function adequately as adults becomes more readily apparent.

Well, note this, my diagnosis when I was 14 was (and stayed this way forever on this doctor's record):

AXIS I: Asperger's syndrome
AXIS II: Schizotypal personality disorder

I just broke the universe!

I think the research will stand pretty well. From my experiences working with both I have observed the same things this study measured. Autistic individuals will "jump" and become either agitated or befuddled with loud noises and people who fall into the schizoid category will continue on their way as if nothing happened not missing a beat.

Schizoid and schizotypal are not the same thing. Your schizotypal diagnosis may have been the result of symptoms that were more visibly noticeable or disruptive, whereas an underlying schizoid personality can take longer to rear its head. This doesn't mean schizoid features weren't already developing in childhood... it's just harder to classify someone as having a "personality disorder" until their late teens or early adulthood. Isn't that the general rule of thumb for PD's? Anyway, this is just my knowledge on the subject. I'm open to reconsider my view...

- I have a question. You believe you might be schizoid. Do you feel any differently now than when you were younger (say, at ages 5, 8, 12, 15, 18)? I ask, because some of the things you describe sound familiar (to me) including: feelings of restlessness, feelings of emptiness, escaping into the mind, etc.

You also talk about social anxiety. I don’t have social anxiety (as least according to the diagnosing Psychologist), but I do know that I don't adjust to new things well (yeah - I realize that's different). When I was young, I remember particularly have difficulty adjusting to kindergarten, middle school, high school, sleep away camp, etc. To this day, I have difficulty connecting with others.



This came up during the executive functioning tests (Wisconsin Card Sorting). The Psychologist indicated, "Rocket required more time to reason through information in an unstructured novel situation. These nonverbal-reasoning weaknesses can create difficulty for him with organization and prioritization”. Essentially, I freeze up, not knowing what to do. I notice this happens at work, when complex, unstructured situations arise. It also happens in social situations (which are the ultimate unstructured situation). I oftentimes am at a loss of words, simply uncertain how to process what is going on and, more importantly, what to say (in conversation). I hope this makes sense.

It seems that, at least on WP, some people diagnosed with Aspergers talk of a happy childhood and others talk of an unhappy childhood. Is an unhappy childhood tied to this "repressed childhood pain" you refer to?

Also, previously you mentioned an "emotional wound or psychological injury that happened in childhood". For schizoid to apply, must this be caused by your parents at a young age? Or, could schizoid apply if it was caused by people other than your parents (say, your peer group)?

Just curious.

There is nothing in this article saying that autism is the opposite of schizoid disorder; more - the article does not even make any reference to schizoid disorder.

That's a good question and I can try to answer it. I think I always had a vague sense of sadness growing up. In grade school I was good at sports (I know, not typical of Aspies if I do have it), did well in school, was popular, but was still unhappy inside. I'd learned to cope and cover up my problems as I continued into high school, continuing to mimic others to fit in. That's how I found my place and was accepted by others - I would adjust my personality, my interests, etc. to blend in. Eventually a collapse has to happen, a crisis of sorts. In my opinion, we all like to believe we're in control of our fate, but I think our general fates are preset in childhood. If you were mistreated in any way, eventually this will show itself later in life. Nothing can be suppressed forever. This is why psychologists might tell you, "you're exactly where you're supposed to be." You can't run from your pain forever, it doesn't really work all that well.

And so what happened to me was my social mask started to crack and I started experiencing intense anxiety and depression, etc. A few years later (now), I'm starting to understand the causal "dominoes" that led to this subtle breakdown. I'm going on a tangent right now and I don't even know if I'm answering your question haha . When I think about it, I think I had minor dissociative symptoms as a kid as well. I would escape into the mind a lot and would almost do it on command when a stressful situation arose. So my schizoid traits were definitely there to someone with a trained eye to see.



The fact that you don't have social anxiety makes me think you're probably not on the schizoid spectrum. Some would argue that schizoids have no social anxiety whatsoever because they're so emotionally detached and don't experience the physical anxiety of, say, someone who desires and strives to maintain social contact but is afraid of it. But schizoids on the more severe end have emotionally detached themselves from others because of social anxiety that was probably too intense. So don't be fooled - they may look indifferent but the discomfort around others is there. That said, you would probably need to have this basic problem - whichever way it manifests - to be considered to have schizoid traits.

I'm not sure why you may have had difficulty adjusting to new grade levels or whatever. Maybe somebody else could weigh in?



Makes total sense. I experience this at work all the time, and in other situations, such as with friends. It's these things that made me start considering an Aspergers diagnosis...

Yes. It doesn't necessarily have to be a specific trauma, e.g. sexual abuse. A chronically unhappy childhood that the child shoves out of awareness in order to cope and survive becomes suppressed if it's not dealt with.



From my understanding, the wound needs to be caused by your parents. Parents play a very key role in a child's life. Growing up in a harsh environment, the child concludes: if Mom or Dad is so mean, harsh, critical, unforgiving, verbally abusive, etc., that must mean that the world is generally an unsafe place. So the child develops a fearful, untrusting attitude toward others, toward life.

I think peer groups could certainly exasperate the wound with teasing and cause things like depression and anxiety, but a schizoid personality is a pervasive condition that is really set into motion early in the child's life when the parent's are the key objects of attachment.

Again, take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Have you seen a professional about this? What diagnoses were you given up to this point?