Could Aspergers Be A Positive Evolutionary Trend?

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Todesking
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18 Sep 2010, 11:28 pm

SteamPowerDev wrote:
We can give the NT's some soccer balls, they will be fine with it.


Some of the ones that tortured me in high school liked to play with balls aswell. :wink: :lol:


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18 Sep 2010, 11:28 pm

MathGirl wrote:
MrDiamondMind wrote:
buryuntime wrote:
MrDiamondMind wrote:
Assembly wrote:
I'd argue that an NT with an IQ of XXX would be 'smarter' and more accomplished than an aspie with the same IQ.

This, I believe, is absolutely false.
It seems to me that Aspie creativity grows exponentially with more intelligence, whereas NT creativity grows merely linearly.

An aspie taking the quiz would have the communication and possibly attention problems an NT wouldn't have. Thus, their score is probably lower than the NT's making the aspie more intelligent by an IQ tests standards. But I do think the NT has more of a chance of being accomplished.

Their success would/does not stem solely from their intelligence, though.
I'm sure their intelligence contributes less than 50% to success. Probably less than 30% even.
Which then makes it not an accurate intelligence test AT ALL.

No, intelligence does not mean, or is meant to imply, success.



Last edited by MrDiamondMind on 19 Sep 2010, 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BruceRogers
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18 Sep 2010, 11:45 pm

Well, you are right in thinking that ASD bears some of the traits of being a distinct genetic population, but we won't know if that's true until the root cause of asperger's is found. As for there being any kind of trend towards becoming a seperate species, I doubt it. The tendency of aspies to not reproduce combined with the fact that their overall survival skills are lessened by the disorder make it much more likely that ASD will be bred out of the gene pool eventually.


Of course, the increase in reported cases does still raise a number of points of interest, particularly surrounding the possiblity of environmental factors in the development of the disorder.


Also: Hello community!



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18 Sep 2010, 11:46 pm

They might be able to understand how the autism gene works one day and use it to manipulate an embroy's genes to make more creative artists, scientists, or even a more charismatic NT. We could one day see a genetic caste system. I think it was the Myans who had their professions chosen for them depending on what day of the month they were born on. With the proper gene therapy we could make this happen. I do not think we are going to evolve anymore then what we all ready are. Any new genetic leg up will be seen as a mutation or horrible deformity and they will simply erase it with genetic gene therapy like they will probably do with autism. 20 years from now the modern nations who can afford to screen for genetic problems like autism will see a decline in autistic types who think differently and perhaps better than average NT. These are the people needed for the great advancements in technology and art. The third world countries who can not afford to screen their children will become the new masters of technology and inovation thanks to their autistic thinkers they will be the new overlords of the planet we aspies will have the last laugh at the NTs and their fear of autism.


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Invader
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19 Sep 2010, 12:10 am

A species doesn't need greater numbers in order to become dominant. Humans are vastly outnumbered by the populations of many lower species which reproduce on a massive scale.

Just look at farm animals. If their populations weren't kept sky-high, we'd have nothing to feed on. :wink:

I don't know why people are always so upset that NTs outnumber aspies. They serve an important purpose, imagine an ant colony with no workers. It's much better to have them around, and it's not such a bad thing that they have more simple and common interests than aspies, just like worker ants are content to be inspired by simple chemicals emitted from their queen, or something. If they were all utterly absorbed in their own random interests, the colony would never get anything done.

If aspies are ever going to occupy the evolutionary position of becoming "the brains of this outfit", they're still probably going to need the jolly hordes of NTs to be the "brawn". Some people prefer meticulously designing houses down to the last detail, and some people find it more satisfying to do the work of building them. Different strokes.



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19 Sep 2010, 4:03 am

This thread is ridiculous. Don't you believe in neurodiversity ? And what would you do about people with other disorders than Autism (since NT here mostly means non autistic) ? Some very intelligent people with these disorder could also argue that they are a positive evolutionary trend or that the world would be better if most people were like them.

And do not forget that all Autists are not like you, or that all NTs are not the same.

You highly dislike it when people make stereotypes about Autism or treat you like an inferior creature, then why are you doing exactly the same thing here ? When calling yourself rational, logical and honest (or better, perhaps more moral than NTs) ? You are not thinking here, you are feeling. You are just responding to a violent world with violence, this leads to nothing.

We need everyone to make the world, every kind of person, utopia does not exist. Would not it be better to wish for a world without any crime and discrimination (though it would be totally irrealistic when looking at the human behaviour) than for a world full of autistic people ? Because some of us could be criminal. Some of us could take advantages of the others in a way or another. I have seen lots of AS arguing over who was the most intelligent, taking IQ test for granted, being so narcissic that they had forgotten that their speech made no sense.

And I must say that I do not like it when a group of people start to imagine its superiority. Who are we to claim that aspies are better than NTs ? Who are them to claim that non autistic is better than autistic ? How could one really say "gifted is better because iq tests are so accurate", or "my son is dyslexic therefore is is superior to yours because he thinks differently" ?

We all have negative and positive qualities, I believe more in neurodiversity than in an autistic world or in a world in which people would me even more divided according to their diagnosis.

I may not go along with many people or have troubles being sociable, but I work on it and I have met many interesting and highly intelligent people who were not Aspies (but most of them had another disorder, right). But I have also met an Aspie who is highly creative and intelligent and non aspies who were stupid and mean.



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19 Sep 2010, 8:05 am

Assembly wrote:
fact: IQ is not everything. Social skills (believe it or not) ,empathy, non-verbal communication, improvisation, common sense etc. is just as important (if not more important). A society where everyone is an expert in one area and suck at everything else, yet doesen't want to use the expertise of others would not work.


Very good point.

I already have the theory that the big problem of Aspies is that "social problems" and "specialized interests" are two traits that don't relate very well:

- a person with "specialized interests" but without "social problems" can be a good "organization man" (for example, a technician in a big corporation)

- a person with "social problems" but with generalist interests can be a good "lone wolf" (for exemple, a farmer, or even a small businessman)

But a person with "social problems" and "specialized interests", what will be his niche?



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19 Sep 2010, 8:39 am

Molecular_Biologist wrote:
TTRSage wrote:
Certainly it could not become dominant as the result of natural selection, since the marriage rate is rather low among Aspies (I read something like 1% in one article here) resulting in fewer offspring than all the NT baby factory types in this world.


Culture is not static and has changed rapidly

It could have become dominant in the past when mating customs were far different from what they are today, when pure sucess in some area was enough to secure a spouse and provide for a family.

We now live in a hyper-social world where social skills are the end all and be all of mating success.

If our world is to become like the society in "Idiocracy" it not just because the smarter yuppie couples are having less children.

Its also because of the prevalence of the welfare state. Nearly 50% of the households in the US are on some form of public assistance.

As the government provides all the essentials, there is no need to choose the geeky but prosperous mate.

With wealth redistribution, the geeks have lost many of their advantages over the smooth talkers in the mating game.

When the smooth talker abandons you for the next fling after siring multiple children, just raise taxes on the geeky guy to pay for your brood.


I think that smooth talkers usually earn more money than geeks (in spite of the new stereotype of the "geek internet millionaire", usually CEOs, lawyers and salesmen earn more than engineers and scientists), then, if anything, wealth redistribution is geek-friendly.



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19 Sep 2010, 9:41 am

What if you are to consider the specrum as soley autistic or soley typical - like two different animals . . . as if we were developing towards specrums that discribe two branchs of very differently evolved humans.

On one end of the autistic spectrum you have classic autism in the middle you have aspies, and at the far end you have the undiagnosed savant who is successfull and not "disabled", maybe has special abilities which do not appear on the NT spectrum

The NT spectrum might place the uber social NT who can't percieve that they bog down their team at work and get fired from jobs for hanging out at the water cooler at the bottom and the guy who sells life insurance at the top.

If you consider them as seperate populations with overlap (not a true hybrid, but maybe subspeicies?)

Then the number of successfull (undiagnosed) genetic examples remain untracked.

If some of the genetic mutations for autism are dominant, you can assume the successfull examples are also rising - based on the numbers of ''NT's'' producing autistics I am led to believe the Autistic genes are much more pervasive than we think. That many of these ''NT's'' are undiagnosed and maybe not as ''typical'' as they outwardly appear.


NT's have not evolved much in the last 10 000 years - the monkies we had runnning around back then were not too different from the monkies we call NT's.

We have eneugh people on the planet that we should start seeing some neuro diversity indeed!



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19 Sep 2010, 11:40 am

Assembly wrote:
fact: the average IQ for aspies is about the as that for NTs (thanks to the IQ requirement for AS, if not then it would be a few points lower).

and some Aspies have savant abilities the NT could brain could never achieve no matter how hard they trained - this evolutionary development in the human brain (mutant chromosomes which cause autism) sets Aspies apart from Neuro typical and other previous humaniods

fact: the average aspie does not have any savant skills, nor is he/she gifted or a genius. The distribution might be different with more extremal IQ values.

actually savant ability has nothing to do with IQ but is allowed by a mutant chromosome that causes different structure in the brain and creative use of existing brain structures in the temporal lobe - google Dr Julian Asher for more info about the genetic links between Autism, Synaesthesia and Temporal Lobe Epilepsy

Opinion: Believing that we are so much smarter than those 'stupid NTs' is ignorant. I'd argue that an NT with an IQ of XXX would be 'smarter' and more accomplished than an aspie with the same IQ.

fact: IQ is not everything. Social skills (believe it or not) ,empathy, non-verbal communication, improvisation, common sense etc. is just as important (if not more important). A society where everyone is an expert in one area and suck at everything else, yet doesen't want to use the expertise of others would not work.

fact: about 70-80% of all aspies are unemployed. We also tend to chose 'aspie-professions'. There would be 'no' doctors, service workers or leaders in an aspie society.

I suspect Aspies would oraganize themselves differently if they did not have to facilitate the needs of NT's - perhaps the NT opinion that we are unfit to be employed in thier buisnesses is comparable to the treatment of first nations people who had different ways of managing their society not embraced by the dominant imposing group?


opinion: the negative aspects of AS/autism outweigh the positives by far. Some of us may have skills/ways of thinking that is a great asset to NT thinking.

fact: NTs are brilliant at structuring,running and organizing society. It's simply amazing.

I disagree - their society continues to oppress all kinds of people with gross inequity to wealth disribution. Their society is pretty harsh and cruel, and doesn`t seem to work for most of us for all the ''outreah and intervention'' we can never truely integrate at best ''Pretending to be Normal'' - so maybe the society they sructure works brilliantly for them, but not for us. I don't think I could integrate into chimpanzee society either.

fact: behind todays successfull aspies there are often a team of psychiatrists, economical support (before that person became successfull), parents (many aspies live at home till they are 30), social workers etc. In an aspie world or simply a society with (alot) more aspies, where would the support come from? Sorry fellow aspies, but I don't like to sugar coat things.

okay while we are not sugar coating things - how effective is that team of proffessionals? or is it structured to provide lucrative employment to various NT proffessionals while controling, studying, and systematically denying services to us - after all after paying all those proffessionals how much could possibly be left over for providing actual services? So now we get a team of proffessionals abusing and marginalizing us into killing ourselves (because they used to be able to just do that for us back in the good ol' days when they had proffessionals they called inquisitors and various other trial by ordeal)

assumption: overpopulation wouldn't be a problem (but humankind could die out). There would be less crime and pollution. If we managed to create an organized society, it would most likely follow a socio-democratic,teknocratic og meritocratic model . Deathrate would be higher (percentwise).


conclusion: no it would not be a positive evolutionary trend.


hmmm, being dominant and on the rise - positive or negative- seems to be our collective fate.
I prefer to be optomistic! Human kind as we know it may die out. Maybe developing and changing - maybe one day, we will all hear in color, with temporal lobes evolved to manage creative use of neuro pathways without seizuring? Maybe we will all count dates and do amazing calculations in our heads? Maybe we can retain eneugh NT social ability to have compassion for others but breed out that social drive that creates abusive group behavious like bullying, systemic racism, wars, and ensurance sales scams.

Yes it is only a small fraction of Aspies who inherit the right combination of genes to manage the affects of these mutant chromosomes - but the guys who get all the peices demonstrate what we are moving towards as a speicies. At the point that we are all like that, Yes, we truely will be a different kind of human.



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19 Sep 2010, 10:20 pm

MrDiamondMind wrote:
MathGirl wrote:
MrDiamondMind wrote:
buryuntime wrote:
MrDiamondMind wrote:
Assembly wrote:
I'd argue that an NT with an IQ of XXX would be 'smarter' and more accomplished than an aspie with the same IQ.

This, I believe, is absolutely false.
It seems to me that Aspie creativity grows exponentially with more intelligence, whereas NT creativity grows merely linearly.

An aspie taking the quiz would have the communication and possibly attention problems an NT wouldn't have. Thus, their score is probably lower than the NT's making the aspie more intelligent by an IQ tests standards. But I do think the NT has more of a chance of being accomplished.

Their success would/does not stem solely from their intelligence, though.
I'm sure their intelligence contributes less than 50% to success. Probably less than 30% even.
Which then makes it not an accurate intelligence test AT ALL.

No, intelligence does not mean or is meant to imply success.
Ah, I thought you were talking about success on the IQ test itself. Getting a lower score on the IQ test does not make the aspie more intelligent by the test's standards; I don't see the logic in buryuntime's statement. MrDiamondMind, that makes sense. Thanks to the hiring process, a less intelligent NT has more chances of getting hired than a more capable aspie. Interviews are a ridiculous way to hire. They test your ability to present yourself to others, which is a social skill and NOT always a job-specific skill (unless you want to do marketing/sales/managing/any other highly social job). A much more logical way to hire somebody, in my opinion, would be to start off by giving them work-related skill aptitude tests to see how the potential employee can do the job IN PRACTICE, not how well they can put on a happy-go-lucky mask. Today, the latter unfortunately seems to be much more important. Something is very, very wrong about this.


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