Lack of empathy? Tony Atwood Disagrees.

Post Reply New Topic

I think you are mistaking sympathy for empathy. I think empathy is not only being able to perceive what someone is feeling, but build models in the mind for what a person is feeling, and that is where I have a lack. Doesnt make me a bad person, but I would have ppreciated a lot of guidance when I was younger.

Attwood's got it right, IMHO. And I agree with other posters here that much of the problem is a lack of consensus about the meaning of the word empathy........if only everybody agreed that it meant an inability to see signals of a need for a sympathetic gesture, there'd be no problem, but to many lay people, lack of empathy = doesn't give a damn.

But there is also this: I'm an Aspie. I've known for ages about this empathy confusion, and have posted before to rail at those who misjudge us in that way. Yet, when I'm with a guy who has many strong Aspie traits, I often feel momentarily angry with him - I'll say something to him to which anybody else I know would respond in a way that reassures me that they've heard and value what I've said - but quite often he'll just not react, he'll fix his attention onto something else, or he'll cut right across what I'm saying and interrupt with an idea of his own. I feel like he's blown me off.

If I play or sing a part of a song that I've worked on and an proud of (we're musicians rehearsing together), he'll often give me no feedback about whether or not he sees any merit in my work - he doesn't seem to value anything that has its appeal in its potential to "reach" or excite the audience emotionally, and will suggest changes that decimate my hard-earned results....it seems that his reasons for enjoying music are more to do with chord sequences that are interesting or challenging to play. Thing is, even with all my knowledge about autism, I still want to kick him.

Of course I have enough self-control to avoid doing that - just that the feelings I get about him are so strong and negative that I've come to believe that no matter how well-understood his autistic plight is, it still hurts to be ignored like that, and it still generates anger. Sure, the world has a responsibility to realise that AS people have special needs and that these little social gaffes aren't meant to hurt, but equally, we too have to meet them halfway and understand the pain we can inflict, and to do our utmost to keep that pain to a minimum.

My daughter is diagnosed with AS she gets way too emotionally involved in stuff. So do I. Although I don't have a diagnosis, I have been assessed by the regular team of psychologists who suspect it enough to have now referred me to the AS specialists for formal assessment.

This sounds like my relationship with my wife, which requires effort to find the middle ground, and to cross over (e.g. on identifying a gift that would give pleasure to the other). She is from a slightly different culture, which I think helps a lot because many aspects of empathy are about meeting a cultural expectation, and it is almost taboo to discuss them. Between cultures it is very easy to say "when you do X, it upsets me / makes me happy", because the expectations are different and need to be explicitly discussed and explained.

Now that's interesting - my estranged wife has some strong Aspie traits too, and is from a different culture. A lot of her behaviour (that upsets me) makes sense in terms of AS, in fact if I believed she wer neurotypical then I'd also have to believe that she just didn't give a damn......though dialogue wiith her about resolving the issues is difficult because she doesn't seem able to fathom the idea that she could hurt another person, and although I've suggested to her that our problems might have as much to do with her atuism as mine, she's not shown any interest.......I can't work out yet whether I'm dealing with an extremely competitive person, who just daren't admit that their behaviour could be in need of correction (which would require her to give ground, which is a submissive or co-operative thing to do), or if it's just that she lacks the social imagination to realise the importance of seriously looking into the idea.

I'm afraid our cultural differences are something of a sore point between us, but you make a good point - in some ways they can help to lower some of the more difficult NT expectations.....in theory you should get less of the "oh, come on, everybody knows perfectly well that you must always/never do x!"

Congrats, you hit the nail on the head.

Having emotions or not is not a diagnostic criteria for aspergers. Having no emotions is a diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality disorder: i.e. "having shallow or seemingly nonexistent feelings.".

Now, have YOU got a diagnosis, and have YOU got the right one?

It's not unusual for an Aspie to be able to write like a neurotypical, especially if there's no time constraint. There is/was a decidedly autistic guy on this forum called Daniel who can, in writing, show remarkable perception about people and their interactions, so that you'd wonder if he could really be autistic. And I've been told that I'm also rather like that......as long as I don't let anybody see my first drafts, they'd never know I wasn't NT.

At least what Tony Attwood wrote in the letter that Ichinin quoted is also my personal experience as an Aspie.

I feel for and with people when I know what they're feeling, and want to help them (though I might not know how to do that). But usually, I don't know what someone is feeling unless they tell me outright, or if they're crying. And for some reason most people have an aversion to simply stating how they're feeling, which doesn't help. Until I started reading about autism recently, I had no idea that most people (supposedly) are constantly picking up on cues from one another indicating what they are thinking or feeling, and could not understand why I was always being accused of being selfish and not caring about others' feelings when in fact I did care.

I tend to value the opinions of a team of medical professionals who have evaluated me over many years a little more highly than a lay person with less formal education. By the way, Ichinin, exactly which University did you get your Phd in Psychiatry from? Perhaps the doctors who diagnosed me could attend a conference at that place, to increase their expertise in their chosen field, since they seem to have gotten it all wrong about me.

You should keep reading the board. There are valid criticisms of many things. And don't take my word for it; there are much more respected and eloquent (and diagnosed, if that's important to you) posters/writers/activists than I, who make such points.

My impression is that you're newly diagnosed. People seem to start out adhering to what's the experts say, which is understandable. You have to start somewhere, and it's unsettling to think at first that the foundation might have holes in it. People need time to meet or hear others in order to see how wide and complex the spectrum is, and to start to disentangle their personality traits from their autistic traits. Many seem to get the two confused, at first. I.e. Someone might assume that all autistics are good with computers and math, or are atheists, like they are, and decide that any autistic who isn't like that (like them) isn't really autistic. That's unfortunately a really common thing.

Looking back at history there are very gross mistakes such as the "refrigerator mother" theory, or that stims are "purposeless" and best treated with aversives. So it shouldn't be surprising (to me, anyway), that there are criticisms, such as about empathy or lack of Theory of Mind, these days. Psychiatry has made bigger mistakes than those before.

Apple in my eye. The reason for my post was simply that I dislike the insinuation that I am a sociopath, which I unquestionably am not. I will explain to you my reasons for my trust in "experts". It is this: They have spent a lifetime of study in their chosen fields, dedicating 1000's of hours to whatever their chosen field. Diagnosing people is what these professionals do for a living. They put their credibility on the line every time they make a diagnosis. There is a process of peer review involved. In my opinion, they are more likely to be correct about someone, as opposed to people who take a casual interests in themselves or others. I have known people in my own life who suffered because they chose not to trust any professional and rather "self-diagnose". Then when they inevitably find out they were wrong about themselves, they are devastated by the realization.
Of course current theory can be wrong, and miss some aspects of a condition. I won't deny that. It is just that in my current situation, I have to trust those who should have my best interests in mind, and so I do. Because of my general communication and social difficulties, I really have no choice.

Well, I have personally seen a cardiologist invalidate all of his training, education, and experience with a very simple (but common) error of reasoning. And if a professional turns you out the door as being fine and he's wrong, how is he ever going to find out? How is it ever going to affect his credibility (or opinion of himself)? (For things like cancer and heart attacks, it's probably different, admittedly.)

On this board there are endless stories of professionals not referring someone on because they made eye contact once in 10 minutes. Or they don't "look ret*d," or like the one other autistic patient that doctor has seen.

(And as someone who has had to deal with many doctors, it's hard to get good information about a doctors' credibility. Stature, respect by peers, fancy job title, yes, but those might or might not work out to be practically useful.)



And there are those who self-dx (or "self-identify") and turn out to be right. I'd argue with the word "inevitably," there. There are people who end up devastated because they couldn't get assessed properly.

Also, there are those who've been to multiple professionals who never picked on any ASC (or diagnosed them with 6 other things, none of which fit too well), until the person saw a professional with real experience and knowledge -- who they wouldn't have seen without doing some research on their own.



Yes, we all have to make our judgments about who ultimately to trust, and that's personal, and I respect that. It's probably from my experiences that I put myself in the prime position, having faced disbelief for health problems (that were headed for putting me on the street). In the end I was vindicated, but only because I persisted in the face of professional brush-offs (that cardiologist).

Some years back my mother was in the hospital, and they cut a corner, which put her in a bad state. I started asking a lot of questions, and took notes on everything they did. They hated me for it, but they didn't cut any more corners.

We're supposed to be able to trust in certain things, and while I don't completely distrust everything, the "scales have fallen from my eyes" about many. I am even fascinated with the difference between how the world is supposed to work, and the way it really does. Well, enough of my editorializing.

Just my experience(s)/thoughts. Good luck.

It is fascinating to hear some of these stories. I have had nothing but positive experiences with doctors, in general. It may have taken awhile, and lots of observation, but they eventually came to the proper diagnosis that I am satisfied with. Maybe it depends on who you go to. Some of the stories I have read on wrong planet give me the chills. I just cannot imagine having experiences with doctors and other N/T people that are that negative and horrible. What some of you have gone through is unbelievable to me, and totally at odds with my own experiences. I don't always have the best attitude, so I don't really know how to explain it. I have just come to trust certain people because they have benefited me in lots of positive ways.

I haven't got one, i used my logic and google to find out what i needed.

Now, which University did you get YOUR Phd in Psychiatry from? You called me out as a neurotypical on a severely flawed built up logic, one that was inconsistent with the diagnostic criterias for aspergers.

At least i had my diagnostic criterias correct.