Differences between mild Aspergers and severe Autism?

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OK, SORRY for breathing! I will shut my mouth next time.

Why don't anybody understand that almost everything always ranges from mild to severe? Viruses range from mild to severe. Dementia ranges from mild to severe. The weather ranges from mild to severe. Noise ranges from mild to severe. Don't you get it?

Last edited by Joe90 on 16 Jan 2011, 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If that were true, why would we need a support group?

You want to be part of a group you define as having nothing wrong with it. You desperately want that. Why? Because your self-esteem is screwed up. Special ed will do that to you. You'll have to find a way through it, and I get it that this is really painful for you. You're struggling with an awful self-image. I know what that's like. You haven't bothered to look at the gifts conferred by autism. Maybe you don't know about them. You certainly have done nothing to question the assumption that people with disabilities are inherently inferior, perhaps by definition inferior. I suggest looking up the Social Model of Disability. You as yet don't understand the difference between failures that come from within and failures enforced by others.

You know what? I want to help you. I really hope you manage to sort this out; you're young yet, so you probably will. But in your quest to feel okay about yourself, you're putting other people down. You probably don't even realize how offensive it all is.

Look, it's like this. There are PEOPLE in this world. They are all inherently valuable, but some are separated out and considered inferior for various reasons. These reasons are used to justify doing awful things to them. You've had but a taste of that, and a taste is bad enough; it's had an effect on you, a huge effect, and you want to be rid of the poison left in your soul. I don't blame you. So you know that you don't want to be part of a group considered inferior. Instead of realizing that no one does, and no one deserves it, you have not yet questioned its existence. You see that you are disabled, and not as severely as some in some ways, so you view yourself as being in an in-between land-- you view "autism" as one of the inferior groups, the less-than-human people, and NT as the normals who don't have to suffer this way, and Asperger's as encompassing people who are in between. And you desperately, desperately don't want this. You want to be considered valuable and the only way you can think of to do that is to be NT or as close to it as possible. You desperately keep trying to explain how close Aspies are to NTs, and how far they are from autistics.

And here's what I have to say to you: THAT'S ENOUGH. The people who are labeled autistic, the people who wear diapers, the people who need assistance, YOU ARE HURTING THEM. No one belongs in that category. Don't just try to convince people you're far from it-- it doesn't need to exist! If you want to be treated well, if you want a positive self-image, accept that your value as a human being is not increased by not wearing diapers. This normal/acceptable/ubermensch vs. inferior/disabled/lebensunwertes leben/ballast-existenz is a FALSE DICHOTOMY. No one fits in EITHER category. The ability to maintain the fiction that you do fit in the normal/acceptable/ubermensch category has been taken from you. Consider that a gift. Others think they fit, but they don't. No one fits. Some people can pretend to fit better. Some people pretend to fit so well they forget they're pretending. It's an act, though.

Their positive self-image is based on being something they're not. That's one of the reasons people so distance themselves from those they consider inferior. They are not secure in their own status. These categories are inherently destructive, no matter who goes in which. So yeah. You definitely DON'T belong in the inferior/disabled/life-unworthy-of-life category. But instead of trying to work out definitions for these categories so you go in the "good" one, how about you instead realize they shouldn't exist at all?

You don't NEED to fit. It's okay. Really. Oh, and you should read this blog (link). She explains it really well.

No one attacked you for breathing. No one attacked you. Your post was criticized because you made unsupportable claims about just about everyone who is a member of Wrong Planet. I somehow doubt you will asphyxiate if you stop making sweeping, incorrect, generalizations about people you do not know.

No one is denying that autism has severity. What people question is whether you can determine everything someone can or cannot do on the basis of what you see them do or not do. You can't judge how autistic anyone is on the basis that you see them post on a forum, hold a job, drive a car, go shopping, have friends, or speak.

Are you calling me a liar or a tosser, because I not hurting ANYONE. I never once used the word ''ret*d'' or ''stupid''. I used the words ''severely Autistic'' and ''mild AS''. Even my social worker says I have mild AS. I must be NT then, if I appear to not understand Autism.

That's it, I'm sick and tired of arguing, I am NOT posting on this stupid topic any more so don't bother having another go at me. I can't help it if I am thick. I just THOUGHT there was a difference between general dependant people and general independant people, but apparently there isn't, so I will shut up. And dependant people aren't bad. My own nan is dependant and I love her to bits and I enjoy her company and is a lovely person, Dementia or without Dementia.

And I've never offended people on here. It was just a little misunderstanding, since a lot of posters seem to be married with children and are talking about their employment. But I've never EVER said there is anything wrong with being severely Autistic. And those who are dependant but are opening up on this forums, I can say I am proud of you. And anyway, on another thread I've had a poster saying to some members on here, ''you lot all can work, just make more effort to do something with your life and stop moping about on the web about your problems what you've probably made for yourself''. Those probably aren't the exact words, but it was close enough. Now, that is a very offensive thing to put to people.

And on some other threads I've seen people putting, ''Aspies are aliens''. That is offensive to me. That is more offensive than what I've ever mentioned on this thread.

Like you said - we're all people.

Nobodys trying to insult you or call you thick. It's just hard to know what to think when after all this discussion of various people's abilities you turn around and say that nobody on this forum is in any but the "mildest of mild" category when really very few people here fit it.

And nobody's saying there's no differences between people. Just that the differences are not as clear and rigid as you seem to think there are.

I really hate discussions like this. The social part goes way over my head. I've felt all along as if I was being called stupid or crazy or both at times. I didn't want to say much about that because I don't like bringing my feelings into this kind of discussion where they could get stomped on or else misinterpreted. But whenever I hear that something I can't perceive at all is simple or obvious it brings up all the crap I've ever gotten for thinking mostly in observations rather than ideas. Then I try to say those observations. It takes longer to say an observation than an idea usually because ideas are more condensed. And that's even after I use words to condense them more than they already are. And then the other person acts like I'm the one calling them stupid and I wonder what on earth did I say?

For my part I never thought you were trying to hurt anyone. I just did my usual attempt to put another, minority view out there where people could find it if they wanted. I didn't think you were judging people as good or bad. Judging their abilities yes. Judging their character or personhood no.

I don't know whether you know what it feels like to be made invisible everywhere you go. Either because people think you have no mind, or because people assume if you can write you can do all kinds of things. But I've been made invisible like that my entire adult life and in other ways much of my childhood (I was overestimated more in certain parts of my childhood because of hyperlexia among other things). And I know a lot of people who are likewise made invisible.

My contributions to this thread were attempts to make a lot of people less invisible. Drawing a hard line between HF and LF always makes people put in both sides invisible whether you mean to or not. I never said you meant to. I know you have good intentions. But it takes more than good intentions sometimes. I've been flipped back and forth in peoples heads so many times between mild and severe that it gives my brain whiplash. And I will always try to make this acworld where that happens less. But I never mean to hurt anyone, I just want to make visible people these idea category things erase. I'm sorry if anything I said hurt anyone.

Oh and actually everyone is dependent on everyone else. It's just a matter of kind and degree.

Guess I'll continue to think outside of ideas. It's not easy though. Sometimes I badly want to just be as sure as most of the world seems to be, that the ideas and categories are real. To just use words like LFA and HFA and mean them and be sure they have meaning. But I can't. That's not how my brain works. So I guess I have to keep doing things like this where I discuss what I've seen instead of what I've thought. Even though it irritates some people and drives others away. Just don't think I don't feel as stupid as you feel, because I can't even believe or truly understand pretty "simple" ideas.

It is easy to take something for granted when everybody around you seems to believe it...

Like this: If you have always been told something, if everyone around you takes it as a fact, then you will not just reject opposing ideas, but you'll be confused by opposing ideas because they are "obviously wrong". For example, say that all your life you have been interacting with people who take functioning labels as a given fact, and nobody ever questioned it. So when you come up against questions regarding functioning labels, you respond by trying to define or understand them better--it doesn't occur to you to question whether they are applicable at all because you have already taken this for granted.

It's something like how we discovered that objects all fall at the same speed, regardless of weight--it was such an easy experiment to do; but the problem was that nobody ever thought to check because it was "obvious" that lighter things must fall more slowly.

Functioning labels and similar categories are like that too. People take it for granted that they exist and that they define to a great extent the people who are labeled with them. Rather than trying to find out whether they are applicable, people--especially professionals, like your social worker--assume that they must be applicable and react to evidence that they aren't by trying to apply them more precisely rather than questioning whether they should be applying them at all.

That is not offensive. We differ greatly from the mundanes who populate the world. We do not belong; I have spent my whole life never belonging. I have spent my whole life an outsider even among blood relations. My body language is not the same as most people use. My interests seem odd to some. I am forever being told that I am odd or strange. Usually people will deny it, but any given trait of mine, they call it strange. It hurts to live in a world where it's taken for granted that people are not like me.

I am an alien. I am a stranger soujourning in a land where I do not belong. These are not my people. This is not my home.

It's the little things. It's how people call a sunny day "beautiful" or react with incredulity when I say I love rain. It's how people say things like "humans are social animals" and "the eyes are the window to the soul." It's how when people explain how they know someone is shify or means ill, they list things I do all the time. It's how they never even acknowledge me, just state not even that they register these things this way, but that people who do these things are shifty, are dishonest.

I don't belong. After I turned eight, I was never accepted by any group of children. When I was ten, the little girls in the lower grades at my school... they were friends... and they put up one of their friends to coming up to me-- she looked scared of me-- to tell me they didn't like me. The other fifth graders didn't like me-- never treated me kindly-- nor politely.

At summer camp. They kicked me out of my cabin. It was nighttime. Just sent me with my stuff out... one of them then decided she'd drive me in her car over to the staff cabin where my mother was... so behind me no one cared what happened and never expected me back, and at my destination no one expected me to show up-- am I the only one who thinks I'm lucky she didn't do anything... else?

I am an alien. Don't ever try to claim I am part of the human race, or belong to it, or belong with it or among humans.

I don't, okay? That's not offensive. Offensive is when you refuse to see that. Offensive? OFFENSIVE IS WHEN PEOPLE THINK MY HONEST ASSESSMENT OF WHO AND WHAT I AM (and more to the point, what I am not) IS OFFENSIVE.

I don't feel different from others at all. I did feel different more at High school. Well, I felt more left out, and people were deliberately leaving me out, and what got me so mad was one person from overseas came to live here in England and suddenly took over my little crowd of friends I did have, and ruined everything. She used to say to me, ''everyone thinks you're weird, Josie!'', even though nobody has ever said that to me, only this one girl who had recently came into my life. They may have thought it, but they've never said it to me, so I didn't want to assume what my ears didn't hear. I've seen other people around me get bullied in school, but I never got bullied - even though the most bitchy sort of girls were in my science class and were likely to judge any differences in anybody. They bullied the girl who called me weird and they laughed at her and called her weird. So the bitchy girls were civil and friendly to me, but I didn't really want to get involved with them.

But anyway - let's cut to the chase. Now I've left school, I've met different people in college courses, work experiences, placements, job centres, interviews, meetings, shops, other courses..... And some of the people I have come across have really made me opened my eyes, and made me think that I'm not so different after all. I've even gotten to know lots of people who get on my bus, and there's one old man who is very different to most people, even me. I won't explain about him, but he is no Aspie, but he is still different (probably got some other neurological condition).
I'm only different in such tiny ways, and maybe some of my quirks are different to others (even though everybody has their quirks), it still doesn't make me a lot different. I may get anxious about little things others might not, but I'm not going to let that separate me from the mundane population.
I'm not talking about anyone else here - I'm talking about me, and how different I feel. And I don't feel different. I've got a fair amount of NT friends who I fit in quite normally with, and although I can be hard work at home, I still don't feel different. My brother's NT but got some cognitive issues, my mum's NT but has anxiety issues, my dad's NT but likes things what none of us like..... The only people I feel different to are those who like parties, dressing up, facebook, and drinking themselves stupid - which not every NT actually does. It may seem that way, but it's not. I know loads of NTs who like to stay in and watch TV and just go out for lunch with their friends sometimes (including me) and doesn't drink or party. And those are the people who I fit in with the most.
My mum is NT and she even feels different at her work at times. She thinks everybody are luckier than she is, and are more outgoing, and seem to know how to do this and that, and she even says that she feels she's on nobody's wavelength. But she is not on the spectrum at all.

OK, everybody's entitled to their own opinions, and if you feel like an alien, then I'm not stopping you. You don't know me and I don't know you, so I'm not going to be told how to think of myself. I am a person. I have the same emotions, desires, and thoughts as any other person. A few difficulties with things isn't really making me feel like an alien. It just makes me feel more like a sluggish person, because I know I can do these things if I gain more confidence in myself, which can only be boosted by seeking some help (which I am doing). Otherwise, all I'm doing is just slowly plodding along, meeting different people along the way, facing problems and overcoming problems, maybe having a day where I do feel everyone's against me, but most days I just feel myself.

Like my Nan says to me - ''you're just Josie''. She says that to me when I'm upset about people. She says, ''don't worry about what other people are thinking. Don't worry about who you're not. Don't worry about who you're different to and who you're similar to. You're just Josie, and always will be.'' I like the way she says that.

Joe90,

Do you believe you have Asperger's Syndrome?

I realize you were diagnosed at a young age, but you talk a lot about how similar to NTs you are, or how NTs are not so different from Aspies. You seem to want to define Asperger's Syndrome as something that is mild and not really noticeable (the posts here, the "Normal" thread). I am not trying to pick on you, but this does seem to come up a lot.

the main problem that i see with using terms like low functioning or high functioning is that they imply that all those who are LF are the same or very similar, and those who are HF are the same or very similar. they imply that the autism spectrum is a single line and each asd person occupies a single spot on the line.

not so. the spectrum is not a line. its multiple lines. its 3 dimensional, made up of an infinite number of lines. imagine a graph with x, y, z axes and a thousand lines intersecting at 0, 0, 0, and one person would occupy a spot on each and every line, making them a sum of a thousand different dots on a thousand different lines, not just one dot on one line.

my youngest will be 5 next month. he is in diapers with no sign of being able to train. thats considered LF (toileting skills line).
his iq is tested in the 120's. HF (intellectual functioning line).
he does not play with other children, ever. LF (peer relationships line).
he is appropriately verbal for his age. HF (verbal communication line).

so what is he? for most of his functionality, he is HF, however i am sure any kindergarten teacher who has to change diapers next year would consider him LF and not want to deal with that aspect of who he is. he is not one dot on one line.

ironically, i think this often ends up being a communication problem. when we talk about someone on the spectrum, we cant take half an hour to describe where that person falls on each of a thousand lines. so we "sum it up". HF, LF, non-verbal, mild, etc. i also think that having the differing labels, asperger's vs classic autism, makes matters even worse. then you have a set of assumptions that go along with aspergers, and classic autism is often broken into LF and HF.

but neither asperger's, HF, or LF accurately describes everyone with that diagnosis or designation. it does tend to give people an idea of where to start from, for instance when you hear asperger's you dont think of someone still in diapers with a cognitive impairment. but the trouble begins when people stop looking beyond the designation and take it as a final descriptive.

none of us, asd or not, can be summed up by a single word or phrase. people are more complex than that.

Verdandi: I dont know if this is what's going on or not. But someone once pointed something out to me about disability and a lot of other human variations. It's that people who have always been told they're totally and completely different than normal often stresss their similarities to the norm, while people who have always been taught that they have no difference from the norm other than perhaps laziness and other defects of character (which are then deemed appropriate reasons to bully them) have a tendency to emphasize their differentness. Real life is hardly that simple but it's something that does happen often. I've caught myself having both reactions at different times so I can't really condemn either one of them.

This article, which is highly relevant to this thread, mentions that tendency:

http://www.ragged-edge-mag.com/0501/0501cov.htm

I wasn't talking about anybody else, only me and how I see things and how I feel. Like you said - everybody's different. I was diagnosed with Dyspraxia, but I have AS traits because of some social difficulties I do have, which is one of those things which are complicated to explain to people over the internet, who don't know me or my circumstances. I was also diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, because most of these traits probably come from the anxiety disorder. I don't really know what I am, to be honest. Perhaps I have a neurological condition what hasn't been discovered yet, like what Autism was before 1994. Seems that way.

Anyway - sorry about what I said about the all of us being like me s**t. I think what I was trying to say (but didn't write it properly due to my stupidness) is everyone on here are able to write and express their opinions, whatever neurological condition they've got.
Aww, I've said the wrong thing again, haven't I......

Not the wrong thing at all. It made way more sense than what you said before.

AS is really more than social-- it's not even mainly about social stuff. Those are just the most obvious indicators for NTs to pick up on.

I think what your nan says is very profound, though. It doesn't so much matter whether you're on the spectrum or not, whether you have dyspraxia and an anxiety disorder or some completely new neurological condition no one's ever had before. When you come here, and when you ask about specific problems, do people give useful answers? If so, then you've found someplace to go even if you aren't an Aspie. If not, even if you are an Aspie, there's no reason to stay.

Honestly, I think that also applies to functioning labels. Personally, I think they should just be discarded entirely because they tend to cause harm. Like, calling people high-functioning tends to make the people who hear it not realize how much help they might really need. But calling people low-functioning tends to make people not bother to consider their potential and their skills. Really, there isn't anyone who's totally stereotypical on either end. I'm about as close to a stereotypical "super-high-functioning Aspie" as it gets and I don't truly fit that stereotype.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt131530.html
That is why I hate functioning labels. Maybe you could come up with a workable definition for them that didn't cause so much harm and strife... but I doubt it.

My own solution to functioning labels is to describe the qualities, abilities and lack of abilities, you mean in a person instead of using such a broad term.

Yeah, that makes sense. Usually they're not all relevant anyway-- like if you're describing someone to a speech therapist who'll work with them, only verbal ability, preferred method of communicating and any emergencies likely to happen during sessions (e.g., seizures, meltdowns from fluorescent lights).

The problem is keeping people from making assumptions. Like, a nonverbal person might be able to drive, but most people would guess that they couldn't.

Everyone who's going to work with autistics should be required to interview or read autobiographical work by at least two autistics who think differently from each other, at least one of whom has a surprising skill-set (able to do things most people would assume they couldn't, or unable to do things most people would assume they could).