animal vs human non verbal communication

Page 1 of 2 [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

ediself
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2010
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,202
Location: behind you!!!

09 Feb 2011, 3:49 am

I want to bounce off what someone said about dogs being easier to communicate with than humans , on the "do you ask questions" thread, but i'm curving my habit of going off topic and so here is this thread.
It made me wonder, if our problems with non verbal communication are so prominent, how come a lot of us refer to animals of other species than ours like cats and dogs as "easier to understand"? We are supposed to be super verbal people who cannot decipher a raised eyebrow. So why do i see dogs smile? And understand if it means that they're just amused, or that they want to do something and are trying to put me in the mood to do it by smiling? I don't even own a dog, and i'm not a dog person, because i hate their smell, but I remember that when i was a child, a woman brought her dog to our clas and "taught" us how to behave with dogs and recognise their non verbal signals, with ears and growls and very basic things. And i was thinking, i never really look at a dog's ears, they can speak with their eyes...
So : NTs teach children to recognise animal body language the way we teach ourselves to decipher human body language. Facts, what muscles move to indicate what state of mind, etc.
But for me, it was all instinctive, i just read the animal's face like an open book. Am i the only one, and if not, does that mean....something?
I can read birds body language, head tilts, shoulder shrugs. I can see when a cat is resentful in a split second, i can feel when a horse likes me but really isn't in the mood to joke around, i can instinctively feel the moment when a spider goes from "omg hide " to "you, i'm going to get you, even if it costs me my life" ( yes, we have those kind of agressive spiders where i live...slowly getting used to them :P )
So why don't i just know if someone likes me? Why can't i see if someone is in the worst mood ever until they snap at me? Why am i only blind to my own species body language, and who else is the same, and any science guy has an explanation for that? ( see, i DO ask questions after all :D )



Chronos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Apr 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,698

09 Feb 2011, 3:52 am

Animals are easier to read because they don't lie.

If my cat is mad, he's going to either lash his tail, stomp around the house, or pee on something he knows he isn't supposed to.



ediself
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2010
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,202
Location: behind you!!!

09 Feb 2011, 3:56 am

Chronos wrote:
Animals are easier to read because they don't lie.

If my cat is mad, he's going to either lash his tail, stomp around the house, or pee on something he knows he isn't supposed to.

there's that, but: simple body language too! ever noticed your cat sitting there, and you're wondering, why does he turn his back on me? so you call him, and see his ear doing a little tilt, like it WAS going to turn to your direction but the cat thought ah no, not giving HIM that pleasure! and the ear stays put. That's a VERY mad cat. (mine did that once after i took him to the vet....didn't speak to me for a week. )



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

09 Feb 2011, 4:03 am

I find animal body language very easy to read, especially cats and dogs. I don't really know why this is, but I can look at a cat and tell mood - and I can interact with them in such a way that I can generally get along with them unless they're difficult to get along with in general or mad at me specifically for some reason.

I find it strange when dog owners act like their dogs are being hostile to me when the dog is obviously being very friendly, and I am okay with the friendliness (I hate the smell, but I am okay with dogs otherwise), and they're acting like I'm being put upon. It's odd. Also seeing other people get intimidated by dogs who are obviously friendly and trying to greet them. It's pretty easy to introduce yourself to the dog and get it over with, but people act like BITING IMMINENT. Odd.



ediself
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2010
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,202
Location: behind you!!!

09 Feb 2011, 4:12 am

Yes Verdandi i've had the same thing happen to me, it's like people don't even know their own dog, and then are very surprised when the dog let you come close...When i was a kid i had the habit of going to unknown dogs,the dog could be barking his head off, but with the right smile in your eyes, you can turn them into friends. I used to practice that a lot, and i remember getting comments such as " how is that even possible?" from the grown ups around. Of course it won't work when a dog is not that kind of dog, when he means business and WILL bite you if you go, but you just know which ones that is. So, i can read intentions. Just not in humans. Did my mirror neurones somehow think i was the family dog's daughter as an infant and plugged themselves on HIS body language instead of my mother's?



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

09 Feb 2011, 4:24 am

When I was 18, I lived at my grandparents' farm, where they had a feral cat colony that kept rodents under control, and they kept the cats fed. These cats were fine with the food but they did not get along with people, you know? I think within a month several of them wanted to sleep in my bed with me (I lived in a camper - the only spare bed available. It had power and heat, so comfortable). When a neighbor kid saw me with the cats he tried to pick one up and got mauled pretty badly. I'm just glad his father heard me say "Leave them alone, they don't like people."

One thing they'd do sometimes is follow me into the house and sit with me while I watched television or whatever, but if I left them alone they'd totally freak out and try to escape the house. Okay, this only happened once because it only needed to happen once (the cat was asleep, I didn't want to wake her - she woke up and lost her s**t while I was in the bathroom).

Some never let me touch them, but they were more okay with me being around than other people.



Yensid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,253
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

09 Feb 2011, 4:27 am

I think that human body language, especially facial expressions are a lot more subtle than animal body language. With humans, the difference between a slight smile and a half smile makes a huge difference. Just think about the subtleties of eye contact. There are times to make eye contact, but if you hold it too long, then you're staring. There are just so many small details in human expressions. I think that animal body language is just simpler.

ediself wrote:
there's that, but: simple body language too! ever noticed your cat sitting there, and you're wondering, why does he turn his back on me? so you call him, and see his ear doing a little tilt, like it WAS going to turn to your direction but the cat thought ah no, not giving HIM that pleasure! and the ear stays put. That's a VERY mad cat. (mine did that once after i took him to the vet....didn't speak to me for a week. )


Yes, my cat did that to me once too. I took her to the vet without giving her a chance to relieve herself, and she ended up wetting herself. She was mad. Still, I think that the range of feline expressions is much more limited than human expressions. Getting back to my example of eye contact, if you break eye contact quickly, it gives one message. If you hold it for a second or two longer, it gives another. If you hold eye contact and smile it means something. If you hold eye contact and frown, it means something. You can break eye contact quickly and smile, or break eye contact quickly and frown. There are just so many possibilities. There are probably a dozen or two feline expressions. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are fifty or more things that you can do with just your mouth and eyes.


_________________
"Like lonely ghosts, at a roadside cross, we stay, because we don't know where else to go." -- Orenda Fink


Maje
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Oct 2010
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,802

09 Feb 2011, 5:43 am

Strange that you can read animals but not humans, because I think it is the same. Animals can lie. My cat uses her body language to mislead me to think something else is going on. Horses do the same. I notice it though, as much as I notice it in people. By my point of view: body language is the only language I trust.
I have been tricked by animals before and sometimes, my cat still manages to trick me, for example when she has done something wrong. She just hopes I wont see it, or tries to become my best friend, so that I wont be so mad at her when I find out.
Also if something is embarrassing, she acts as if nothing happened and hopes nobody noticed. That is ultimatively funny.

Maybe you are distracted by peoples words?



Last edited by Maje on 09 Feb 2011, 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

just-lou
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 6 Aug 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 252
Location: Sydney, Australia.

09 Feb 2011, 7:34 am

My cat did the same thing - extremely (and deliberately) misleading body language. She would suddenly sit up, prick her ears, crane her head and shift her front paws, wagging her tail, and stare at the front door. Me, thinking the other cats wanted in or someone was at the door, would get up and go look. There was no one there, but when I came back the cat had claimed the arm chair.
Generally though I'm the same, and find animals easy to read and understand, where I completely fail with humans. I used to have horses, and they were the same. Reading their body language saved me from getting thrown potentially badly more than once. I don't know what the difference is - mainly humans are more complex, their motivations behind the body language more obscure as maybe aspies don't share it or understand where it's coming from. Who knows.



Mdyar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,516

09 Feb 2011, 8:08 am

ediself wrote:
I want to bounce off what someone said about dogs being easier to communicate with than humans , on the "do you ask questions" thread, but i'm curving my habit of going off topic and so here is this thread.
It made me wonder, if our problems with non verbal communication are so prominent, how come a lot of us refer to animals of other species than ours like cats and dogs as "easier to understand"? We are supposed to be super verbal people who cannot decipher a raised eyebrow. So why do i see dogs smile? And understand if it means that they're just amused, or that they want to do something and are trying to put me in the mood to do it by smiling? I don't even own a dog, and i'm not a dog person, because i hate their smell, but I remember that when i was a child, a woman brought her dog to our clas and "taught" us how to behave with dogs and recognise their non verbal signals, with ears and growls and very basic things. And i was thinking, i never really look at a dog's ears, they can speak with their eyes...
So : NTs teach children to recognise animal body language the way we teach ourselves to decipher human body language. Facts, what muscles move to indicate what state of mind, etc.
But for me, it was all instinctive, i just read the animal's face like an open book. Am i the only one, and if not, does that mean....something?
I can read birds body language, head tilts, shoulder shrugs. I can see when a cat is resentful in a split second, i can feel when a horse likes me but really isn't in the mood to joke around, i can instinctively feel the moment when a spider goes from "omg hide " to "you, i'm going to get you, even if it costs me my life" ( yes, we have those kind of agressive spiders where i live...slowly getting used to them :P )
So why don't i just know if someone likes me? Why can't i see if someone is in the worst mood ever until they snap at me? Why am i only blind to my own species body language, and who else is the same, and any science guy has an explanation for that? ( see, i DO ask questions after all :D )


Maybe perhaps you're missing the non verbal because of projection? A theory of mind thing assuming they know what you know and feel and they are like you in thought.
Another words are you able to look for "it" during discourse?

To me there is a lot going on in "communication" and I cant track it all, as the body language thing is distracting and in the way. What I try to key in on is "intonation"- I have some clue where we 'are going' with this.

I can read animals as well but I'm not carrying on a discourse with them . There is *time.*

The thing of it is though, there is an unconscious link with the nonverbal, and what they "are" is what you "are" in that moment of time in communication.
If this doesn't happen then that link is "disabled" and you rely on other clues, i.e. use intellect to consciously 'look'.



jamesongerbil
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,001

09 Feb 2011, 2:38 pm

Chronos wrote:
Animals are easier to read because they don't lie.

If my cat is mad, he's going to either lash his tail, stomp around the house, or pee on something he knows he isn't supposed to.
I don't know. I've sworn my gerbils have done the "but look at me i'm innocent!" thing when they've done something wrong (not allowed on book case, etc.) Also, they are very sneaky. One will act like a distraction while the other escapes. They are very good at it...
Quote:
The thing of it is though, there is an unconscious link with the nonverbal, and what they "are" is what you "are" in that moment of time in communication.
If this doesn't happen then that link is "disabled" and you rely on other clues, i.e. use intellect to consciously 'look'.
That's pretty interesting.



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

09 Feb 2011, 2:55 pm

I find it interesting that people are suggesting that their pets share their perceptions of right and wrong.

Not that animals don't learn that we consider some things to be off limits, but I am not sure this translates into a sense of "it's wrong to do that" more than a sense of "if I do that, I don't like the consequences of getting caught at it."



Mindslave
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Nov 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,034
Location: Where the wild things wish they were

09 Feb 2011, 3:00 pm

Animals don't have to hide who they are in order to eat and drink and survive. Humans do, and this has far reaching implications on how we act. It's not just as simple as humans lie, it's much much deeper than that. Lying by itself doesn't account for serial killers and nymphomaniacs.



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

09 Feb 2011, 3:07 pm

Mindslave wrote:
Animals don't have to hide who they are in order to eat and drink and survive. Humans do, and this has far reaching implications on how we act. It's not just as simple as humans lie, it's much much deeper than that. Lying by itself doesn't account for serial killers and nymphomaniacs.


Good point, mostly.

FWIW, "nymphomaniacs" hasn't been a real diagnosis for a long time, and how does it even fall near the same category as serial killer? Your choice of words makes no sense. It looks like you wanted harmful behaviors, but as far as those go, an obsession with sex is pretty benign as compared to, say, any violent crime ever.



ediself
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2010
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,202
Location: behind you!!!

09 Feb 2011, 3:09 pm

jamesongerbil wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Animals are easier to read because they don't lie.

If my cat is mad, he's going to either lash his tail, stomp around the house, or pee on something he knows he isn't supposed to.
I don't know. I've sworn my gerbils have done the "but look at me i'm innocent!" thing when they've done something wrong (not allowed on book case, etc.) Also, they are very sneaky. One will act like a distraction while the other escapes. They are very good at it...
Quote:
The thing of it is though, there is an unconscious link with the nonverbal, and what they "are" is what you "are" in that moment of time in communication.
If this doesn't happen then that link is "disabled" and you rely on other clues, i.e. use intellect to consciously 'look'.
That's pretty interesting.


i've seen both cases, actually, and it doesn't depend on the type of animal it is, some are just smarter, some are better liars, they are all different. I had an iguana who used to climb on my shoulder everytime i prepared a salad , and just stare at it until i gave him some. (yes, the claws did leave some scars on my shoulders and the back of my legs, he used to climb all the way from my ankle....) That was my boyfriend's iguana at the time. But he didn't like me very much, and remained very jealous until he died. How did i know it? i just noticed his staring. There is no facial expressions on an iguana, except from some blinking, but i could see the difference when my partner approached him: he closed his eyes, waiting for his back to be scratched. Never left ME out of his sight if i approached though. So this one didn't lie at all. His climbing on me to get food was strange and i let it happen even though it hurt, because i wanted him to start warming up to me, but it never happened.
But i've had ferrets who were pretty good liars. Very adhd too lol...
What you said about the link doesn't ring totally true to me though.
What they are is not what i am. If my cat is mad at me, i feel it but i ....don't feel mad, i feel confused as to what i did wrong again, then sorry once i put my finger on it.



Mdyar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,516

09 Feb 2011, 5:19 pm

ediself wrote:
jamesongerbil wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Animals are easier to read because they don't lie.

If my cat is mad, he's going to either lash his tail, stomp around the house, or pee on something he knows he isn't supposed to.
I don't know. I've sworn my gerbils have done the "but look at me i'm innocent!" thing when they've done something wrong (not allowed on book case, etc.) Also, they are very sneaky. One will act like a distraction while the other escapes. They are very good at it...
Quote:
The thing of it is though, there is an unconscious link with the nonverbal, and what they "are" is what you "are" in that moment of time in communication.
If this doesn't happen then that link is "disabled" and you rely on other clues, i.e. use intellect to consciously 'look'.
That's pretty interesting.


i've seen both cases, actually, and it doesn't depend on the type of animal it is, some are just smarter, some are better liars, they are all different. I had an iguana who used to climb on my shoulder everytime i prepared a salad , and just stare at it until i gave him some. (yes, the claws did leave some scars on my shoulders and the back of my legs, he used to climb all the way from my ankle....) That was my boyfriend's iguana at the time. But he didn't like me very much, and remained very jealous until he died. How did i know it? i just noticed his staring. There is no facial expressions on an iguana, except from some blinking, but i could see the difference when my partner approached him: he closed his eyes, waiting for his back to be scratched. Never left ME out of his sight if i approached though. So this one didn't lie at all. His climbing on me to get food was strange and i let it happen even though it hurt, because i wanted him to start warming up to me, but it never happened.
But i've had ferrets who were pretty good liars. Very adhd too lol...
What you said about the link doesn't ring totally true to me though.
What they are is not what i am. If my cat is mad at me, i feel it but i ....don't feel mad, i feel confused as to what i did wrong again, then sorry once i put my finger on it.


Sorry, that's what I meant by getting into another mind- a feel of what's going on . Interestingly, if you watch people during communication, there is a definite emotive transfer going on there. In an instant of time there is that transfer of emotion as a mirroring effect. For example: I've noticed with me, as in being deeply upset, it immediately goes to the other person and they feel it all in the same way. It's amazing . This doesn't work back the other way with the nonverbal, though.