Neanderthal theory and race

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Indeed.

Exactly, things like this and the white supremecist comment make me wonder if you (rdos) have been corrupted by some sort of pseudo scientific racist group? I hope you can understand why i think that.

ultimately the only way to approach this is in purely genetic/molecular terms. there is no proof whatsoever in phenotype or some of the dubious conjectures you seem to have made. There is practically no value in any old data, as it is as already stated often biased and not even useful unless used in correlation with molecular data. I can see that you are intelligent but i believe you are misguided. to say that you understand how humans evolved is something preposterous

as i said earlier, i think many scientists would agree that within a degree of variability (encompassing most human variability) epigenetics plays a far larger more dynamic role than genetics. eg. http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/e ... 5.abstract

species is misleading term, in bacteria and many microorganisms such a barrier is very permeable. so as you can imagine my opinion on race besides the connotations is one of wtf does that mean

Not. I originally wrote the part on race because it needed to be explained by the Neanderthal theory. As it now turns out that Rushtons results have been largely disproved, several of the r/K items actually have been found to be invalid in Aspie Quiz (sexual activity and impulsivity), I saw no reason to keep it, and instead wrote a piece that should be compatible with current thinking and the Neanderthal theory.

Actually, this text is probably the first part of the updated theory, and don't need to be kept separate anymore.

It seems like a useful idea to write it in small pieces, and put it up here for discussion. Another piece of the puzzle that I think I have more or less sorted out, but which is not described in sufficient detail in the current version, is Neanderthal hunting. I'll probably write a new section about that, reference it in a scientific manner, and send a link here for discussion. Since I know many people are critical about this as well, I'll probably get lots of interesting objections. Just watch out for the "Neanderthal theory and hunting" thread.

I don't think epigenetics play any larger role in humans than in other species. That would be counter-intuitive and against the theory of evolution as humans are a typical species on earth, and not a super-species that no longer operate under natural selection.

In fact, the discrimination of ASD we see on all fronts today is a very good example that we still abide the laws of nature, and that natural selection still operates in humans.

What we know from epigenetic study on animals is that certain traits that are common and diverse in many species operate by epigenetics. We have no evidence that human-specific traits (or neurodiversity) has any relation to epigenetics.

Yes, please explain how you know so much about Neanderthal hunting techniques and habits. It'll be a fascinating read. All the same I wouldn't want to get trapped in this thread. Especially with so many questions unanswered.

Until the thread comes around, you are adviced to study Valerius Geist's Neanderthal paradigm (you should be able to find it with Google). That way, you don't have to ask me about traits he proposed.

I'd hoped for more than speculation. But even if true much that applied to Neanderthal hunting skills, and crucially much that you think has carried through to aspies is in fact common to cro-magnon and modern humans.

Walking on toes (sneaking) useful to any hunter.
Sniffing - ditto
Enjoying chasing animals or people - ditto
Mimicking animal sounds - ditto
Making traps - ditto

I could go on, but it is obvious those hunting skills are not unique.

As for other things you propose such as: "Enjoying spinning in circles - related to an animal trying to get rid of the hunter" you really do stretch credibility to the limit.

Did i say that?

Yes the Hunting aspect is also controversial, although it led me to the Neanderthal theory, in curiosity of why you were associating Hunting with Aspie traits.

I saw the rest of your update on the Racial Aspect of the theory and I think it bears some scrutiny. There is some information regarding IQ, that does not bear out with the facts, as they exist. There is also new research in the area of IQ, for Aspergers that you may not be aware of.



The Measurement of Verbal ability has been included as a standard in IQ tests since the early 1900's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#cite_note-101

Research several years ago showed that Children and Adults with Autism Disorder, who scored lower than 70 IQ scored much higher on the Raven Matrices test. Their scores were lower on Verbal IQ than Performance IQ on traditional IQ tests that measure for verbal and performance IQ, as well as Full Intelligence measures, however, this study did not include any individuals with Aspergers.

A study like this was done in 2011, that focused on Children and Adults with Aspergers.

The graphs linked below are from the recent research done by Michelle Dawson and associates. VIQ is the verbal intelligence quotient measured by the Weschler intelligence tests that are the standard for most institutional settings in the US, and have been so for decades. Aspergers Children, in Graph B, scored the highest on Verbal IQ and the lowest on Performance, IQ. Their scores on Verbal IQ exceeded the scores on the Raven Matrices tests as well.

Increases are seen in the Raven Matrices scores in adulthood, in Graph A, but the measure in childhood is a better measure of genetics, because culture can influence scores as one reaches adulthood.

Increases in Raven Matrices scores were found in Aspergers Adults as well as Non-Aspergers Adults. Never the less, Adults with Aspergers scored higher on verbal IQ on the Weschler scale than they did on performance IQ.

An argument that neanderthal splinter skills are not related to Verbal IQ, is an argument that Neanderthal splinter skills are not related to Aspergers.

The argument could be made for Autism Disorder but not for Aspergers.


http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0025372.g003&representation=PNG_M



Same issue as above, verbal abilities have been measured since the early 1900's.



You are suggesting here that African American Intelligence and Neurotypical Intelligence is related to Verbal Ability. The standard Weschler measures of intelligence would agree with that point of view. However those same standards provide results that indicate that Asperger Intelligence is also related to Verbal IQ.




There is some evidence that suggests that Neanderthals might not of had as much of a capacity for Verbal intelligence as modern humans, but on average it is the intelligence strength tested in Aspergers.

There are no standard IQ tests that test for social skills, problems in social communication, or RRB's associated with Aspergers. A high verbal IQ, is no guarantee of social skills or abilities in social communication.

While the argument may go on for IQ differences in human beings, the one you are making here for a relationship between lower verbal IQ/Neanderthals Splinter Skills as associated with Aspergers can easily be disproven through the evidence as it currently exists.

Michelle Dawson is a proponent of Neurodiversity, and a research scientist with an ASD. Her research has provided evidence that Autism Disorder is associated with lower Verbal IQ, and higher performance IQ on average, but it has also provided evidence that Aspergers is associated with higher Verbal IQ, and lower performance IQ on average.

The IQ argument that individuals with Aspergers, on average, may have higher IQ's than the rest of the population has been refuted with Dawson's research. Dawson's research shows both Adults and children with Aspergers to score lower on average, in every measure of intelligence, as opposed to control groups without Aspergers.

Interestingly among individuals tested in her earlier research that excluded those with Aspergers, her results showed that Adult Individuals with Autism Disorder on average scored slightly higher, but not signicantly higher, on one measure of Intelligence, the raven matrices test, than non-autistic individuals.

So, per the results of the Raven Matrices test, in her earlier study, Adult individuals, on average, with Autism Disorder, scored significantly higher on the Raven Matrices test than Adult Individuals with Aspergers, on average.

On average, it has been thought that Adults with Autism Disorder score lower than average on IQ test than Adults with Aspergers. According to Dawson's studies that is the case with tests that score for Verbal Abilities, but it is not the case for Raven Matrices tests that scores only for fluid intelligence.

In that respect you could make the argument you are making, inclusive of only Adults with Autism Disorder in results from the Raven matrices test, but you would have to leave all the folks with Aspergers completely out of the conversation, per the evidence as it exists, along with children with Autism Disorder.

It's an interesting proposal. People with Autism Disorder have lower than normal normal levels of Verbal IQ, per the results of Dawson, and slightly higher than normal levels of fluid intelligence than non-autistic adults. Not so, for Children with Autism Disorder, so that argument wouldn't work either, on the basis of genetics, alone.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0025372

So, per current evidence as it exists, you can't use higher measured levels of any kind of intelligence, as opposed to the population you refer to as "Neurotypicals" in reference to Autism Disorder or Aspergers Syndrome, as evidence for your Neanderthal Theory of Autism..

The folks that you are referring to as "Neurotypicals" have already been evidenced by a Neurodiversity proponent/research scientist as having overall higher levels of intelligence on every measure for Children with Autism Disorder, Children with Aspergers Syndrome, and Adults with Aspergers Syndrome, per the full research article, linked above.

I don't see any other alternative, at this point, except to drop the IQ argument completely out of the theory. Unless, you want to exclude individuals with Autism and/or Aspergers from what you describe as Neurodiversity.

Don't feel like reading through everything at the moment, but I did a little bit better on performance IQ than verbal. Not sure if this corresponds to Aspergers, not even sure if I do have Asperger's.

I did extremely well on working memory, much more so than every other area.

Supposedly, Asperger folks do better on the verbal portion.

I have no idea if they are supposed to or not, but I know that many also have Dyslexia, and AS in combination with Dyslexia probably means they do better on performance than verbal.

However, I'm not diagnosed with AS, and suspect I was dyslectic as a youngster, and I'm pretty sure I score higher on performance than verbal if I checked.

As AS is a biased selection of people from the neurodiversity pool this can have many explanations. One is that people that have comorbid Dyslexia (not uncommon) does not get diagnosed with AS, but with ASD or MR. I know my daughter was diagnosed with Autistic Disorder instead of AS because of lower verbal ability.



Again, AS is a biased selection of people from the neurodiversity pool, and we expect them to score lower because this is why they are getting diagnosed. Neurodiverse people that need AS diagnoses have more problems with coping skills (related to IQ), and additionally also lack enough splinter-skills to be able to succeed at work. It is evident that it is easier to become an accepted oddball if you have some extraordinary abilities that are valued at work. I know this is partly why I can uphold such an image.



Not so. The one's I refer to is those that are neurodiverse, but haven't been diagnosed. They quite likely score considerably higher on IQ test than the AS population.

It's good that you clarify here that you are only talking about individuals without a diagnosis, that are neurodiverse, however in your abstract there is no indication that you are referring to neurodiversity outside of the Autism Spectrum and the disorders that are part of that spectrum, associated with your theory.

Nor, do you mention the word neurodiversity anywhere in the abstract or text of the theory, that I have been able to find.

You refer to diversity only in the context of autism in the abstract. I have only come to understand you are talking about neurodiversity, outside of Autism, because you have explained it in these discussion groups as equivalent to the aspie traits you measure.

I don't see how anyone reading the abstract or theory could come to the conclusion on their own that you don't include any diagnosed individuals, when you talk about higher intelligence among those whom you describe as diverse, having lower verbal IQ, greater non-verbal abilities, and Neanderthal Splinter Skills.

If that is what you intend, I think you would need to define it as such, for people to be able to understand it, in the racial aspect section.

The problem goes a bit deeper though, with your idea that verbal IQ is not a strong point of neurodiversity. The only empirical evidence available on higher intelligence among the neurodiverse group that you are measuring, beyond those whom are diagnosed, are introverts.

There is evidence that introverts score higher on all areas of intelligence measures, including verbal intelligence, per the link below.

http://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/staff/CV385.pdf

While there are some individuals diagnosed with neurodiverse conditions, that have lower levels of verbal IQ, there is no evidence that individuals whom are not diagnosed, with a neurodiverse condition, have lower levels of Verbal IQ, than the rest of the population, on average.

You could make the argument that the introverts you measure as having Aspie traits, are more intelligent on average than the general population, because that empirical data exists. But, that is the only defined group of individuals that you have captured, as such, with the Aspie Quiz questions, which include questions similiar to those that test for introversion.

There have been some theories bounced around that introversion is part of the broader autism phenotype, and even some that have suggested that it should be identified as part of the Autism Spectrum, although not as a disorder.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-introverts-corner/201104/compelling-theory-about-introversion-extroversion-and-autism

Your abstract for reference:



Also, if you don't mind, could you please explain how you matched these dates with a PCA of the Aspie-Quiz Results?

I understand that you believe that the Neanderthal Traits you identify are one in the same with Aspie traits, but I have yet been able to determine how you came up with the dates, with the available references on your website.

And, the African American Statement, without the context that you are not actually diagnosing or even surveying those that could potentially identify themselves diagnosed with (non-HFA) autism disorder, with the results of the Aspie Quiz, is in contradiction to the empirical evidence in the US, provided by the Government, that ASD's among African Americans are diagnosed, and statistically measured, close to the same prevalence rate as Caucasians.

I think it would be good to make it clear that you are not surveying the disorder of Autism other than those whom identify themselves as HFA, and that your evidence is based on interest, and not the actual results of African Americans, whom take the Quiz. Otherwise it is clearly refuted by peer reviewed government statistics, per your presentation of the data.

I think I talk about both groups, but as the neurodiverse group without diagnosis is much larger, any averages we talk about in the context of neurodiversity tend to reflect the neurodiversity group without diagnosis to a larger degree than the ASD group because of the prevalence difference.



I know I need to update the theory. It hasn't been updated in 5 years.



Interesting.



Grimes theory that introversion is a dimension in itself, with ASDs at the extreme end is supported by Aspie Quiz. If I'd known about this research, I'd quoted it as supporting information. Aspie Quiz proves she is correct as the score distributions are not normally distributed, but rather are composed of two overlapping normal distributions. And Aspie Quiz does have a strong correlation to introversion / extroversion, partly because it has tested surveys about social anxiety and social phobia. OTOH, Aspie Quiz does not limit itself to only introversion, but uses everything that is on the neurodiversity factor. She naturally is also correct about introversion and extroversion not being opposites. Extroversion is most correlated with neurotypical compulsion and social traits, while introversion is most correlated Aspie traits in general. It is quite possible to be both, none or a mix of both.



I use explained variance for the factors and assume the neurotypical factor is 150,000 years old and related to the formation of modern humans. Since the neurodiversity factor explains more than ten times as much variance it should be correspondingly older. The hybridization time is the third factor that explains about 1%. This is about the same argument as used in population genetics.