Neanderthal theory and race

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That is incorrect. The mutational load (most of which is nonsense mutations with no function) is a poor measure of diversity in a species. This is used by political correctness, as well as sociologists, to explain our diversity in terms of cultural diversity rather than inborn diversity. Neurodiversity in particular cannot be explained by culture.

If diversity could be measured with better methods than counting nonsense mutations, we might have a better idea of diversity in various species. It is clear that even if only the physical attributes of humans are counted, that humans are more diverse than many other species, including Pan.

You are presenting a different source, now, that studied the DRD4 7R gene in South American Indians and Africans, which suggests the DRD4 7R gene occurs in intermediate distributions in both Europe and Africa, and rare in San Bushmen as well as Asia.

That source provides it's own analysis that the allele exists at different frequencies between adjacent populations because of positive selection. Per the research I provided, this is also suggested as the case for the Ariaal Nomads whom have the gene at high rates, whereas other Kenyans that are settled have the gene at lower rates.

The San Bushman have the DRD4 R gene, whether it is rare or not they have it, and are suggested not to share neanderthal DNA variants; so obviously it is not a gene that is specific to Neanderthals. And beyond that there is no evidence that it does exist in neanderthals, only speculation.

Your other source from your previous post, that I quoted, neither studied South American Indians or Africans. You suggested there were no African studies because they were not included in that research. The research you provide here, proves there are studies that have been done in Africa on the DRD4 7R gene, and that it occurs at overall moderate rates.

The Aspie Quiz provides self reports from those categorizing themselves as American Indians from the US. You haven't provided any research suggesting what the frequency of DRD4 7R is in Native American Indians, from North America.

The Ariaal Nomads are classified as one of the most isolated indigenous people's of Africa, as reported in the research on that group, by anthropologists. There are no reports of evidence that they are outsiders from reputable anthropologists.

The previous source you presented that stated a 78% association of the DDR4 7R gene exists in South Americans excluded non-native American Indians from that study, as quoted in that source, in my last post.

It measured people that live in Brazil and Chile who are not of native american ancestory. So there is one study that measures the gene at high rates in Chili and Brazil who are not native south americans and another study that suggests it exists in native south american indians at a high rate.

But, regarding Neurodiversity it is of little consequence in the Aspie Quiz, as you have not had a significant number of south american native indians take the test. They live in primitive cultures for the most part, so they would not likely have access to a computer to participate in the online test.

There are close to .4 percent of native south american indians that live in Brazil, and about 4 percent that live in Chile, that were excluded from the first source you provided.

The DRD4 7R gene that you associate with neurodiversity and speculate may have existed in Neanderthals definitely exists in indigenous Africans; that has been proven conclusively by scientists in peer reviewed research. There has been no refutation of that fact by any study or reputable scientist.

While there are inborn differences that relate to neurodiversity, such as the DRD4 7R gene, Cognitive Science understands neuroplasticity as a process that can produce neurological structural changes. And neuroplasticity results in an almost infinite amount of human neurological variation beteen individuals.

Internet/Video game addiction in China has been studied and suggested to result in neurological, structural changes in the brain, as well as changes in behavioral traits; some associated with the same type of Aspie traits, measured in the Aspie Quiz.

This is evidence of the influence of culture on neuroplasticity and resulting neurodiversity. It is an extreme example, and a new area of research, but it is one many factors from culture that likely impact neuroplasticity and neurodiversity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity#Human_Echolocation

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0030253



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_addiction_disorder



There are many of these factors associated with culture, neuroplasticity, and neurodiversity, that are culture specific. Autism rates, even with country wide screening, in Amish Country in the US, are about 1 in 295. Living without electricity, TV, Computers, or other electronic devices, removes culture specific factors, that are linked to neuroplasticity and neurodiveristy.

This would also apply to Indigenous cultures around the world, that are not influenced by these cultural factors.

Everything we feed our brains, makes us who we are, and the diets are very different across cultures.

And, this new area of research, of course, is only the tip of the iceberg of the new area research into epigenetics and natural/cultural environmental agents associated with neurodiverse traits in human beings.

There are many factors beyond inherent genetics that influence neurodiversity. If there is any association of neanderthal DNA with neurodiverse traits in human beings, it is likely only a drop in the bucket, considering all the other factors that have been measured by science.

The Aspie quiz measures neurodiverse traits, but it also measures the cultural influences that impact neurodiverse traits across cultures and countries. There is currently no known way to isolate a genetic influence entirely from cultural/environmental influence in determining if it is a specific DNA influence from an archaic ancestor that impacts a behavioral phenotype. Too many factors are involved, including the other 96 to 100 percent of the modern human genome.

Why do you think that groups in Africa can exist in isolation and not interbreed with any outsider for 30,000 to 40,000 years? It's just impossible. Especially since we know that Caucasians currently inhabitate Northern Africa, and that groups from Middle East have ended up in places like Etiopia. We also have the 10% white ancestry in South Africa, and colonial influence in basically every African country since all of them have a history of colonization. And you believe that we should see 0% Neanderthal ancestry in some parts of Africa? It's just impossible.

Besides, AFAIK, the research about Neanderthal contribution did not say that Neanderthal genes are not to be found in Africa, but that they are less common, which is something totally different from what you argue.

So, if you find some group in Africa that has the DRD4 7R allele, and can find some individual in San that has it, it means nothing.

The main arguments that DRD4 7R cannot have been part of modern humans in Africa are:

* It is too different from the normal allele, and there are no transitionary forms (the divergence time is 100,000s years, not compatible with out-of-Africa)

* It is not uniformely distributed, but instead is almost fixed in some populations and absent in others. We would not expect that of a allele that already had been incorporated in modern humans in Africa

* This allele is part of neurodiversity, and as such, is correlated with the whole neurodiversity phenotype, and many other alleles related to social / communication and mating behavior. It is even the case that hyperactivity is in the social group in Aspie Quiz, and is quite strongly related to unusual sexual preferences. That the difference in mating preferences existed already in modern humans in Africa therefore requires that that population already had those differences, which seems pretty unlikely.

Additionally, since the allele seems to be quite successful, it is entirely possible it can have reached considerable levels in Africa by being spread from imigrant groups from the north. Remember the argument about successful traits with no drawbacks?



That might be impossible to prove / disprove. The main point if that they are one group. What we would want to know is with whom their other genes cluster, in order to make sure they really are from Africa. That's easy enough to do if they want to make some point.

There is always the possibility that someone bred with someone somewhere in these countries that were an outsider at some point in time, but evidence for the neanderthal admixture theory, clearly states that subsaharan indigenous Africans do not possess any neanderthal DNA. That's not my suggestion, it is evidenced from the theory that you are using, in part, to support your theory, and is presented in the peer reviewed research.

The genomes of indigenous africans were tested by the larger study, testing over 6000 genomes world wide, that replicated the study from 2010, and the Neanderthal DNA was found not to be present in Sub Saharan Africa.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/70147517/Neaterdhals-Paper

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110718085329.htm



You've already suggested that indigneous africans do not have Neanderthal ancestory, and do not have neurodiverse traits. I personally won't dismiss the possibility that some might have some trace of neanderthal ancestry, as your are suggesting now, because of some level of modern intermixing, but the current evidence says that the DNA is not present in these indigenous populations.

The current evidence though, conclusively says yes, that indigenous Africans have neurodiverse genes and neurodiverse traits. It is clear in Uganda, the Ariaal Nomads, and their settled kenyan counter parts, and in the San Bushmen, even though the thrill gene is rare among that group.

No one but you, that I know of, is suggesting that the indigenous peoples of Africa are lacking in Neurodiverse traits as a whole as identified and measureed in the Aspie Quiz.

It would be up to you to refute that the indigenous group of Africans proven to have high rates of the DRD4 7R gene are not indigenous Africans or do have shared Neanderthal DNA. They are classified by Anthropologists as indigenous Africans, there is no indication or speculation that they are outsiders in any research. And the current research supporting the admixture theory states that Neanderthal DNA is not present in these Sub saharan indigenous Africans.

So far your speculation that indigenous Africans do not have neurodiverse traits, has been clearly refuted by the current research and evidence that is available.

There is no question about that. Your argument that the Ariaal Nomads could be outsiders, is an opinion not shared by anyone in the scientific community. Again, they are evidenced as one of the most primitive, isolated, indigenous peoples that exist in Africa, per the peer reviewed research I provided.

If there is a lower behavioral expression of neurodiverse genetics in Africa, it is likely in part, a result of cultural and environmental factors. These factors are significantly different in developed countries and they are evidenced to affect neurodiverse behavioral traits measured on the Aspie Quiz.

From your own paper:



IOW, this haplotype exists in 6 out of 1,420 individuals in Africa (0.4%), so it is not absent. By the same logic, autism would also be absent everywhere, as it occurs about that frequency.

That is just faulty research. They have no idea if these structural changes are inherited because of the neurodiversity phenotype, or due to environment. The fact that addiction is correlated to the neurodiversity phenotype makes their results unreliable and unusable.



It's not. They would need to show that these changes does not occur when game addiction is not present, since every neurodiverse trait is correlated with every other neurodiverse trait. I'm sure they could just as well "prove" that game addicts are introverted, have social problems, are prone to have other kind of obsessions and so on. They have proved nothing.

This cannot be stressed enough: Any study on a suspected neurodiversity trait studying the correlation with a random phenotype is unreliable. This is very common in psychiatry today, and it yields useless results. In order to study neurodiversity traits, it is necesary to study all possible causes in the same study, and only if their favorite cause has the highest correlation, is it indicative that it might be "the cause".

Alternatively, they determine the correlation between the neurodiversity trait and Aspie score, and make sure the correlation with their cause is substantially higher. This is the method I used when selecting out similar traits in Aspie Quiz. I don't know the exact correlation between computer game addiction and Aspie score, but I suspect it is at least moderate.



To some extent yes, but this has been minimized. Questions with environmental background has been selected out, and / or been replaced by less environmentally loaded questions. This has been a major issue ever since the start. However, some environmental issues related to social and communication problems are still present, but other than that, these should be at a minimum.

An interesting example is what you brought up before: introverted / extroverted. This trait is not part of Aspie Quiz, because it is not a simple neurodiversity-trait, rather related to environment. OTOH, some traits that are usually thought to be related to introversion are in Aspie Quiz, and introversion itself is well correlated to Aspie score. However, the abstract trait "introverted" is not a neurodiversity trait. It is a complex trait that can have several causes.

You didn't provide the geographic context of the statement, regarding the prescence of a few chromosomes in the Northern and Northeast outskirts of the Sub saharan:



Absolutely no Neanderthal DNA was found south of the northern and northeastern outskirts of Sub-Saharan Africa. So it was found to be absent south of this area.

The Fulani and tuareg were known for their trade with Arabs, however the Ariaal Nomads were isolated and completely separate from these populations on the northern and northeastern outskirts of Sub-Saharan Africa.

No Neanderthal DNA was found in any of the indigenous populations I listed, in particular the ones studied for the autism or the dRD4 7R gene in Uganda, Ariaal Pastoralists, or the San bushmen.

The research discussed those limitations, however this is not the only study that has provided similiar results, in this area, as well as other areas, such alcholism, and gambling.

There are many environmental factors, that are difficult to isolate. In other studies the only reason online videogaming addiction was isolated from online pornography addiction, was because pornography is largely censored on the web in China. These isolation difficulties apply as well to the Aspie Quiz, as you acknowledge.

While you don't list introverted as a trait on your quiz, many of the questions are almost identical to questions that rate introversion and extroversion in other personality tests, so whether or not you are intending to measure introversion and extroversion along with what you call aspie and neurotypical traits, there are no clear boundries, so you are measuring both.

So, when you suggest you are measuring neanderthal DNA as a source for neurodiverse traits, you could just as easily be measuring it for a source of introversion or extroversion. There would be no way to tell for sure, per your criticism of the Chinese study.

Your preferred behavioral phenotype jargon is aspie like and neurotypical, so you choose to use those terms rather than introversion or extroversion, in describing the behaviors you are measuring.

Just as the Chinese studies may be measuring pre-existing neurodiverse traits/introversion traits along with behavioral changes that result from abnormal structural changes in the brain, caused by addiction.

Introversion and Extroversion has been related to neurological differences in studies of the differences in the dopamine reward system of the brain, and reactivity to stimuli among infants, so it is cleary associated with both biological and environmental determinants just as all neurodiverse traits are.

One cannot possibly separate either biology or environment from any neurodiverse, aspie like, introverted, or extroverted trait. Neuroplasticity and biology makes this impossible. That's why at most there is only a biological or environmental association with any of these traits. There is no environmental or biological cause that is soley responsible for any behavioral trait in human beings.

The Chinese have measured an association on observed neurological differences and behavior and you are speculating on an association between a behavioral phenoype and observed archaic DNA, that no one has any clear idea what the purpose or result of the prescence of the archaic DNA is, in any modern human being.

So the Chinese hypothesis can be tested, whereas there is not enough scientific valid information related to Neanderthal DNA, to test your hypothesis, at this time. And at most all you could hope for would be an association, even if the archaic DNA was more clearly understood, because of the limits that you and the Chinese have described with the Chinese study

I guess we can't attribute much of any of the addictive behavior to the DRD47R gene, in China, because of the rarity of that gene in Asia. It is associated to the propensity for addictive behavior in humans.

Considering that online videogaming is an addictive force in close to 50 percent of Chinese and South Korean youth and young adults, in effect, it is as powerful as a cultural/environmental influence for addiction, as any addictive drug known to mankind.

This cultural/environmental influence is changing behavior in youth and young adults, in China and South Korea, there is no question about that. Addiction changes behavior.

It's not soley reponsible for the behavioral changes. but it is definitely making a significant impact.

The entire scientific community has been laboring under the delusion that Neanderthals were more capable than earlier hominids but "were somehow less capable" than the anatomical moderns who drove them to extiction by out competing them with a more sophisticated tool kit 35000 years ago- under that delusion for a long time now.

But since we are honored with the presence of someone who knows better than the entire scientific community about paleoathropology maybe we can recruit you to decode what the OP is saying.

So what IS the OP saying?

Not really. Introvert / extrovert is a small subset of the Aspie profile. It is only a small part of what makes somebody Aspie or neurotypical. So, it is not a matter of jargon, but a matter of which definition is the broadest.

Actually, the central neurodiversity trait behind inherited introversion/extroversion can be described like this: A dislike to socialize with strangers. This is not an environmental trait, but an inherited trait, which is at the root of these issues. The standard definition of introvert/extrovert, OTOH, is a mix of inherited and environmental causes. The main environmental cause why Aspies end up as "introvert" is because of bullying and ostracism. That means that Aspies can both end up as introvert because they dislike to socialize with strangers, or because they have a history of bullying or ostracism, or both. That means the definition is not useful for further research, as introvert/extrovert is a complex trait with many different causes.



I don't think you understood what I wrote about this above. They have not proved that addiction causes structural changes in the brain. These structural changes could be part of the brain differences of neurodiversity that people are born with, since they haven't proved the causation. IOW it is perfectly possible that some other neurodiverse trait, linked to addiction, is causing the structural changes. That's why it is so important to disprove linkage between other possible neurodiverse traits and the structural changes in question.

I can take another example which has the same faulty logic:
It is claimed that older fathers increase risk for ASD. They then go on to claim that age is a risk factor for ASD. However, they have not proved this point, as neurodiverse people are more likely to get children late in life. Since ASD is inherited, older fathers that get children with ASD, are themselves more likely to be neurodiverse, and thus to get children late. In this case, it can very well be that there is no increased risk for older fathers to get children with ASD, but instead this is just another trait that is linked to neurodiversity (getting children late) that they are measuring.

With 9 answers, the correlation between Aspie score difference and Hn inheritance is 0.5. The answer frequency is now 0.25%. If this trend stays the same, it would be feasible to prove the Neanderthal theory with the 23andme test.

Not with that procedure, you don't. You need to pick a bunch of random people, do genetic testing on them, and then screen them for AS traits. You can't just get a bunch of self-selected subjects; that'll get you a huge bias and you'll have no idea if the correlation is valid.

It is random. As random as you can get, since it has not yet been posted to any forum discussing the issue. About 1 in 400 that stumbles on Aspie Quiz happens to have done the 23andme test. Happens, which means random.

Secondly, I absolutely would not want to screen anybody for AS traits, as this is not the objective of the research study at all. What I would like to do would be to collect a random sample of people, do the genetic testing on them, and then let them do Aspie Quiz. But if I had the money for that, I'd still have to try to recruit these from the web, and this would not be a random selection. If I used the telephone book, I might get close to a random sample, but then there would be a huge majority of NTs that would make the sample NT biased. If I used a sample from a psychology class and a sample from a psychiatric clinic, I would not get a random sample either. In fact, I think it is close to impossible to get a random sample on this issue that is better than the Aspie Quiz sample.

Additionally, it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the factors in Aspie Quiz are independent of sampling. There are 50+ datasets with the same factors, practically the same factor loadings, despite the samples being biased in various ways. For instance, one sample had 90% NTs, but still gave the same factors. Additionally, the items in these datasets have not been identical, but widely different, and this makes no big difference either. Additionally, scores are both age and gender neutral, meaning that distribution of gender and age doesn't matter. Doing analysis by ethnic groups basically gives the same results as well, even if a very large sample can show there are some tiny differences between the Asian and European sample.

Then add that the 23andme score builds on PCA, and uses all SNPs in the sequence data to calculate Hn ancestry, and that Aspie Quiz uses all items to calculate Aspie / neurotypical score, and this procedure is also based on PCA and using factor-loadings to calculate scores.

IOW, there is not even a need for a random sample, since the scores are independent of sampling. All I need is a set of varied scores that can be correlated.

EDIT: 23andme claim that by June 15, 2011, they had 100,000 users in their database. This was half a year ago, so it should have grown. That makes the figure 1 out of 400 in Aspie Quiz possible and probably sustainable over longer time intervals. There is no need to presume this discussion has contributed to these answers.

I was well aware of the "up to 4%" Neanderthal DNA contribution to non Africans but recently read somewhere that that number had been pushed down to as low as 3.1%.
Here is was what written exactly:
"all non-African modern humans contain between 1% and 4% of Neandertal genes. (A later paper, Reich et al. 2010, has narrowed that range to between 1.9% and 3.1% of Neandertal genes.)"
Here is a link to that paper though it doesn't seem to say anything about 4% Neanderthal DNA being reduced to 3.1% and most media releases are still saying 4%. My mistake.

http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/ ... e09710.pdf

Anyhow, care to tackle anything else I posted?
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "the difference between chimp and humans is in this range, and I suppose you won't say that difference means nothing?"
Humans and chimps are the same but for around 4% of our DNA. If you blow that 4% up to be 100% of what it means to be human then only 4% of that outside Africa is Neanderthal.
How is the 4% DNA we have in common with Neanderthal "in the same range" as the 4% in which we differ from chimps? Maybe I'm being really dumb and missing something obvious here but is it just because they both have the number 4 in them? Can you elaborate on what you mean by "in the same range" when one number represents our differences to chimps while the other represents our similarity to Neanderthals?

Extroversion is solidly associated with likely neurotypical traits and introversion is solidly associated with likely aspie traits on the Aspie Quiz. There is no question about that. And, in general, introversion is solidly associated with Aspergers; there is no question about that.

Even if you could test a scientifically valid association between the high scores on the 23andme test and likely aspie scores, you would also be testing an association with introversion.

It's not possible to completely isolate the general condition of introversion from the general condition of likely aspie, that you test for on your quiz.

So, what you would end up with is a loose association of higher neanderthal scores, traits associated with introversion, and the traits that combine to identify one as very likely aspie.

The same would apply if you found an association between likely neurotypical and a high score on the 23andme test.

There is no way to completely isolate extroversion from a high score on the neurotypical aspect of your quiz either.

There are many suggested environmental and biological determinants of traits associated with extroversion, introversion, and what the aspie quiz identifies as neurotypical and aspie traits.

Neanderthal DNA could be higher associated with any one of those suggested determinants, but that association wouldn't necessarily have a significant impact on the degree of introversion, extroversion, very likely highly aspie, or likely neurotypical, that result from the combination of many traits.

That's a generalized comparison, but the Aspie like and neurotypical traits you test for are associated with many potential environmental and biological determinants, known and unknown, that could be related to Neanderthal DNA, that aren't necessarily the definitive cause for any neurodiverse condition.

The sky is the limit, because the purpose of neanderthal DNA in human beings is largely unknown.



There would be more of a compelling association if it was associated with only one specific neurodiverse condition like ADHD, since you have that self-reported data, but that wouldn't come close to proving a Neanderthal Theory of Autism.

As you provided evidence for from before, even though we know the DRD4 7R gene is associated with many cases of ADHD, it's rare and not associated strongly in some countries, so the strength of the impact of the actual gene on ADHD has come into question, because of potential environmental determinants.

And, we understand the specific DRD4 7R gene, much better than neanderthal DNA. It's estimated in about 10 percent of the total world population, whereas Neanderthal DNA is estimated in about 90% of the world population.



The same argument you make against the chinese methodology, is evident in the methodology you are using with the 23andme results in attempting to prove the Neanderthal theory of Autism.


Even if you had the resources to research and provide evidence that there was no equivalent Aspergers condition in any indigenous African in Africa, without Neanderthal DNA, it would be a loose association that the lack of neanderthal DNA had anything to do with the lack of Aspergers.

It could be because of a lack of another environmental or biological determinant, known or unknown, and even more likely a combination of many environmental and biological factors.


Geneticists only understand what the purpose of about 10% of modern human DNA, so it could also be associated with what we don't understand about modern human DNA, rather than what we do understand.

The purpose of Neanderthal DNA in modern humans is not understood much better than the other 90% of human DNA that is not understood. So, while you might show an interesting general association, it wouldn't prove anything other than an interesting association.



The structural changes in the brain the chinese found are abnormal, remarkable findings, in MRI's. These are not inherent structural changes that have been identified in children with Neurodiverse conditions.

The research is in it's infancy, and further studies are needed to replicate that internet videogaming addiction is the cause of the abnormal changes in brain structure, but there is no question that there is something in the environment that is affecting these children's brains as well as biology.

It is conclusively understood that abnormal structural changes in the brain can influence behavior, so their hypothesis is testable, with further replication, in additional studies.


However, science, has no significant evidence to date, as to what role Neanderthal DNA serves in human beings.

If it were only found in high levels in introverted/likely aspie or extroverted/highly neurotypical people that might be a clue, that leads to more significant evidence, but it is not anymore significant of a clue than if it is was found in people with suntans as opposed to people without suntans.

There are behavioral and biological determinants of that behavioral result as well, potentially spanning from introversion to the propensity for addiction to the biological determinants that lead to suntans. Along, with everything that has happened since neanderthals became extinct, with evolutionary changes resulting from that further adaptation.

If you did a survey of people with Suntans, and found folks scored higher on the neanderthal test than folks without suntans, that would be a loose association, but determining why, would be impossible without understanding more about Neanderthal DNA, and it's purpose in human beings. It wouldn't necessarily have anything, specifically to do with Suntans.

The same would apply to an association with neurodiverse traits in humans. A higher score with neanderthal DNA in people that score highly Aspie on the Aspie Quiz, could be because of any one of thousands of potential secondary associations with the neurodiverse traits that comprise what you define as "highly likely aspie".

The most likely association at this point, since it's already been speculated as a benefit of the admixture event, might be immune system issues, known identified co-morbid with some cases of ASD's, but in that case, the direct association would be immune system issues, common in the general population, not just neurodiverse traits.

Last edited by aghogday on 07 Feb 2012, 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.