20 Feb 2012, 3:21 am
rdos wrote:
aghogday wrote:
It's good that you clarify here that you are only talking about individuals without a diagnosis, that are neurodiverse, however in your abstract there is no indication that you are referring to neurodiversity outside of the Autism Spectrum and the disorders that are part of that spectrum, associated with your theory.
I think I talk about both groups, but as the neurodiverse group without diagnosis is much larger, any averages we talk about in the context of neurodiversity tend to reflect the neurodiversity group without diagnosis to a larger degree than the ASD group because of the prevalence difference.
aghogday wrote:
Nor, do you mention the word neurodiversity anywhere in the abstract or text of the theory, that I have been able to find.
I know I need to update the theory. It hasn't been updated in 5 years.
aghogday wrote:
There is evidence that introverts score higher on all areas of intelligence measures, including verbal intelligence, per the link below.
http://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/staff/CV385.pdf
http://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/staff/CV385.pdf
Interesting.
aghogday wrote:
There have been some theories bounced around that introversion is part of the broader autism phenotype, and even some that have suggested that it should be identified as part of the Autism Spectrum, although not as a disorder.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-introverts-corner/201104/compelling-theory-about-introversion-extroversion-and-autism
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-introverts-corner/201104/compelling-theory-about-introversion-extroversion-and-autism
Grimes theory that introversion is a dimension in itself, with ASDs at the extreme end is supported by Aspie Quiz. If I'd known about this research, I'd quoted it as supporting information. Aspie Quiz proves she is correct as the score distributions are not normally distributed, but rather are composed of two overlapping normal distributions. And Aspie Quiz does have a strong correlation to introversion / extroversion, partly because it has tested surveys about social anxiety and social phobia. OTOH, Aspie Quiz does not limit itself to only introversion, but uses everything that is on the neurodiversity factor. She naturally is also correct about introversion and extroversion not being opposites. Extroversion is most correlated with neurotypical compulsion and social traits, while introversion is most correlated Aspie traits in general. It is quite possible to be both, none or a mix of both.
aghogday wrote:
Also, if you don't mind, could you please explain how you matched these dates with a PCA of the Aspie-Quiz Results?
I use explained variance for the factors and assume the neurotypical factor is 150,000 years old and related to the formation of modern humans. Since the neurodiversity factor explains more than ten times as much variance it should be correspondingly older. The hybridization time is the third factor that explains about 1%. This is about the same argument as used in population genetics.
Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like a good idea to add in the Neurodiversity aspect, when you update. It might be worthwhile to bring in the aspects of introversion, in how they relate to Neurodiversity, along with some of the empirical evidence that points to introversion, as traits that have been positively selected for in the human population.
Risk avoidance is probably one of the largest advantages in modern society, that Introverts have, to reach reproductive age. And there is a great deal of empirical evidence that suggests introversion is impacted by genetics as well as environment.
And, at lowest reported estimates of about 16 percent of the general population, if you include that as part of the neurodiversity you measure, it is clear that neurodiversity is of positive selection value for the human species.
In the sense that our western developed societies are oriented toward extraversion. If there is such a thing as "neurotypical", it is probably somewhere in the middle of the extremes, but in my experience with people, I can't say I have come across one. I pay too much attention to detail.
I'm not sure it will be neanderthal ancestry that you eventually evidence out as measuring, but never the less, you are measuring an interesting set of traits with the Aspie Quiz.
20 Feb 2012, 7:26 am
20 Feb 2012, 11:42 pm
rdos wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like a good idea to add in the Neurodiversity aspect, when you update. It might be worthwhile to bring in the aspects of introversion, in how they relate to Neurodiversity, along with some of the empirical evidence that points to introversion, as traits that have been positively selected for in the human population.
Extraversion is correlated -0.52 to Aspie Quiz score, but neuroticism is even higher of 0.58. But that is still minor to the AQ test that has 0.83.
aghogday wrote:
And, at lowest reported estimates of about 16 percent of the general population, if you include that as part of the neurodiversity you measure, it is clear that neurodiversity is of positive selection value for the human species.
It is interesting that introversion seems to exist t similar levels as neurodiversity.
Is there any studies of racial distribution of introversion?
Here is a recent interesting article on introversion from Scientific American. Most everything in the article can be related to the culture of "aspie". Even, sensory issues.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-power-of-introverts
from the same author:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/opinion/sunday/26shyness.html?pagewanted=all
The biology behind introversion and extraversion is interesting.
The DRD4 7R gene has been associated with extraversion.
Extraversion has been associated with higher levels of testosterone, higher levels of reproduction, exploratory behavior, high levels of self confidence and self esteem, Alpha Male/Female behavior. In addition, wide faces and a mesomorphic build.
Dopamine sensitivity and the Reward Centers of the Brain have been associated with Introversion, along with differences in the central nervous system.
Introversion has been associated with lower levels of testosterone, lower levels of reproduction, cautious behavior, neuroticism, Beta male/female behavior, higher levels of measured intelligence. In addition, narrow faces, and an ectomorphic build.
And, per the link, introversion and extraversion is associated with the animal kingdom all the way down to the fruit fly, as a genetic trait, referred to by the Author in the Link, as sitters and rovers. About 15 to 20% sitters and about 80% Rovers.
Even more interesting is humans are also born predisposed as sitters, at 15 to 20% as opposed to rovers at 80%, however some mold outside of the behavior associated with shyness and introversion.
Per, the article, the most recent numbers from research suggest that about 40% of the human population exhibit shy behavior and about 50% of the population exhibit introverted behavior.
That's the most interesting part, while modern culture is dominated by the extroverted personality, the culture itself appears to be molding more individuals in expressing shyness and introverted behavior.
In other words, in many cases, introverted behavior may be the result of environment more than genetics, in modern day societies.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that part out though, while western societies promote extraversion through advanced commercialization, enabled by technology, many are observers of life rather than actors, enabled as observers by that same technology. That is a recipe for mental illness, both for the predisposed sitters and rovers.
Here is an article that speaks to the evolutionary advantage of "introversion" among northern europeans, and possible factors related to positive selection of higher levels of Central Nervous System Reactivity.
http://temperamentmatters.com/2011/11/13/successful-ceos-wide-faces-or-extraversion/
Quote:
Professor Kagan has spent most of a life-time career studying temperament differences in children. He has called his young subjects “low reactives” and “high reactives” based on the precise behaviors he measures, but the overlap with extraversion/introversion is very strong. Low reactives are relatively fearless and high smilers, while high reactives are just the opposite.
I mentioned in the earlier blog that at the extremes of low and high reactives there are differences in left and right forehead temperatures, with low reactors tending to have a slightly lower left forehead temperature.
What I did not mention is that there are also some differences in body build, eye color, and even–facial width. Low reactives are roughly equivalent to strong extraverts and show little fear or startle to unexpected or surprising stimuli even in infancy (e.g. alcohol swab held just below the nose, balloon popping behind them) as well as showing a lot of cheerful smiling.
They more often show a sturdy mesomorphic body build–muscular and solid, somewhat more often are brown eyed, and somewhat more often have wide facial structure. Hi reactives tend more toward the ectomorphic body built–taller and thin–blue eyes, and narrower faces. The operative phrase is “tend more to” because none of this is invariably true of any individual.
Nevertheless, accepting that Kagan’s “low reactives” can be assumed to be extraverts, this link between low reactives/extraverts and wide-faced CEOs may be the better explanation for wide-faced CEO success. That does leave dangling, however the question of how facial structure and extraversion could be linked biologically, but Kagan has an interesting theory to explain this.
It is generally believed that Europeans migrated from Africa over a long, long period beginning around 100,000 years ago, and emerged in what we now call Europe, about 30,ooo to 40,000 years ago. This would still have been in a glacial period, so they had to adapt somehow to an incredible change in ambient temperament. As Kagan suggests, one genetic route might have been growth of a thick fur-like coat. Another might have been rolls of insulating body fat. Perhaps it could have been both–not a pretty picture!
But that did not happen–or if it did, it came and went without our knowledge. A third route might have been changes in the sympathetic nervous system (SNS). This is in part an alerting system, but it has substantial effects on body heat and many other bodily processes. Increases in SNS activity affect superficial skin capillaries, causing greater contraction and thus reducing heat loss through the skin. It also would elevate basal metabolism and so increase bodily heat production–both useful in near-glacial conditions.
What else? Well, perhaps less desirably, more SNS activity would mean more transmitter activity in the brain for its principle transmitter–norepinephrine. Norepinephrine is an adrenaline-like transmitter with many effects on systems that are involved in fear, anxiety, stimulus detection, etc.
So, more norepinephrine, more worry, fret and fear; less norepinephrine–less fear, more calmness. Kagan assumes that nature chose the SNS route as an adaptation to cold, more or less at random. (Of course it is possible that the early fat and furry model didn’t get far for lack of mating opportunities, and just died out).
My guess is a little different. Physical adaptation to cold was undoubtedly needed, but in a climate where you might never return if you ran out the door when a blizzard was coming, or lingered too long outside because you were having a monstrous fight with a stranger, more anxiety might be a very much needed brain adaptation. Similarly the need to provide food for long, dark, cold winters suggested that the ability to worry about bad weather during good weather, would also be important. So I would bet on the SNS adaptation as the better choice all around.
Now, narrow faces, wide faces, ectomorphic/mesomorphic body builds, blue eyes and high reactives/introverts–how do we tie this together? Well, it turns out that high levels of norepinephrine can indirectly inhibit production of the pigment, melanin, which is responsible for skin, hair, and eye color. it can also directly inhibit production of melanin in the eye (iris) producing blue eyes rather than brown. And wonder of wonders, it can also inhibit the growth of bones of the face, thereby changing the overall shape.
Whether norepineprine also influences body type is less clear, but Kagan does give a number of studies indicating positive findings for introversion and ectomorphic body type. I suspect if you just mentally reviewed the introverts you know for face and body type you would see some support there.
Finally, here are a few more dangling connections. Kagan notes that blue eyes, ectomorphic body build, and narrow faces are more common among northern Europeans, and brown eyes, mesomorphic build and wide faces are more common among southern Europeans.
I don’t know a lot about temperament in these countries, though I have read that there are significantly more introverts in Sweden, at least. Also interesting, though is to think about folk dance styles as you go from south to north. Flamenco dancing in Spain is pretty much an uninhibited whole body movement, and Greek dancing is pretty open and free also. But, by the time you reach the Scandinavian countries virtually nothing is moving but the feet! Looks pretty introverted to me.
Another dangling connection is Kagan’s story on breeding the wild silver fox to be tame. In about 18 generations of cross breeding of the least fearful foxes with respect to humans, they arrived at a consistent group that were as tame as domestic dogs. Fascinatingly, their silver coats now had dark melanin-generated spots.
And finally–the dog. With all the well separated breeds that have been developed, it has been possible to look at a number of characteristics that differ from breed to breed. A study of 24 AKA breeds found that those with the more ectomorphic builds (imagine greyhounds and whippets) were also more timid. Another study looking at Labs, Australian Kelpies, Boxers, and German Shepherds found Labs to be the least fearful and German Shepherds the most timid and fearful. The shepherd body doesn’t seem thin or narrow, but the face, compared to the Lab is certainly pointed and narrow.
So, successful CEOs–are you simply wide-faced, mesomorphic and extraverted? About that cheating behavior, I just don’t know. I suppose being pretty fearless might make it more tempting.
I mentioned in the earlier blog that at the extremes of low and high reactives there are differences in left and right forehead temperatures, with low reactors tending to have a slightly lower left forehead temperature.
What I did not mention is that there are also some differences in body build, eye color, and even–facial width. Low reactives are roughly equivalent to strong extraverts and show little fear or startle to unexpected or surprising stimuli even in infancy (e.g. alcohol swab held just below the nose, balloon popping behind them) as well as showing a lot of cheerful smiling.
They more often show a sturdy mesomorphic body build–muscular and solid, somewhat more often are brown eyed, and somewhat more often have wide facial structure. Hi reactives tend more toward the ectomorphic body built–taller and thin–blue eyes, and narrower faces. The operative phrase is “tend more to” because none of this is invariably true of any individual.
Nevertheless, accepting that Kagan’s “low reactives” can be assumed to be extraverts, this link between low reactives/extraverts and wide-faced CEOs may be the better explanation for wide-faced CEO success. That does leave dangling, however the question of how facial structure and extraversion could be linked biologically, but Kagan has an interesting theory to explain this.
It is generally believed that Europeans migrated from Africa over a long, long period beginning around 100,000 years ago, and emerged in what we now call Europe, about 30,ooo to 40,000 years ago. This would still have been in a glacial period, so they had to adapt somehow to an incredible change in ambient temperament. As Kagan suggests, one genetic route might have been growth of a thick fur-like coat. Another might have been rolls of insulating body fat. Perhaps it could have been both–not a pretty picture!
But that did not happen–or if it did, it came and went without our knowledge. A third route might have been changes in the sympathetic nervous system (SNS). This is in part an alerting system, but it has substantial effects on body heat and many other bodily processes. Increases in SNS activity affect superficial skin capillaries, causing greater contraction and thus reducing heat loss through the skin. It also would elevate basal metabolism and so increase bodily heat production–both useful in near-glacial conditions.
What else? Well, perhaps less desirably, more SNS activity would mean more transmitter activity in the brain for its principle transmitter–norepinephrine. Norepinephrine is an adrenaline-like transmitter with many effects on systems that are involved in fear, anxiety, stimulus detection, etc.
So, more norepinephrine, more worry, fret and fear; less norepinephrine–less fear, more calmness. Kagan assumes that nature chose the SNS route as an adaptation to cold, more or less at random. (Of course it is possible that the early fat and furry model didn’t get far for lack of mating opportunities, and just died out).
My guess is a little different. Physical adaptation to cold was undoubtedly needed, but in a climate where you might never return if you ran out the door when a blizzard was coming, or lingered too long outside because you were having a monstrous fight with a stranger, more anxiety might be a very much needed brain adaptation. Similarly the need to provide food for long, dark, cold winters suggested that the ability to worry about bad weather during good weather, would also be important. So I would bet on the SNS adaptation as the better choice all around.
Now, narrow faces, wide faces, ectomorphic/mesomorphic body builds, blue eyes and high reactives/introverts–how do we tie this together? Well, it turns out that high levels of norepinephrine can indirectly inhibit production of the pigment, melanin, which is responsible for skin, hair, and eye color. it can also directly inhibit production of melanin in the eye (iris) producing blue eyes rather than brown. And wonder of wonders, it can also inhibit the growth of bones of the face, thereby changing the overall shape.
Whether norepineprine also influences body type is less clear, but Kagan does give a number of studies indicating positive findings for introversion and ectomorphic body type. I suspect if you just mentally reviewed the introverts you know for face and body type you would see some support there.
Finally, here are a few more dangling connections. Kagan notes that blue eyes, ectomorphic body build, and narrow faces are more common among northern Europeans, and brown eyes, mesomorphic build and wide faces are more common among southern Europeans.
I don’t know a lot about temperament in these countries, though I have read that there are significantly more introverts in Sweden, at least. Also interesting, though is to think about folk dance styles as you go from south to north. Flamenco dancing in Spain is pretty much an uninhibited whole body movement, and Greek dancing is pretty open and free also. But, by the time you reach the Scandinavian countries virtually nothing is moving but the feet! Looks pretty introverted to me.
Another dangling connection is Kagan’s story on breeding the wild silver fox to be tame. In about 18 generations of cross breeding of the least fearful foxes with respect to humans, they arrived at a consistent group that were as tame as domestic dogs. Fascinatingly, their silver coats now had dark melanin-generated spots.
And finally–the dog. With all the well separated breeds that have been developed, it has been possible to look at a number of characteristics that differ from breed to breed. A study of 24 AKA breeds found that those with the more ectomorphic builds (imagine greyhounds and whippets) were also more timid. Another study looking at Labs, Australian Kelpies, Boxers, and German Shepherds found Labs to be the least fearful and German Shepherds the most timid and fearful. The shepherd body doesn’t seem thin or narrow, but the face, compared to the Lab is certainly pointed and narrow.
So, successful CEOs–are you simply wide-faced, mesomorphic and extraverted? About that cheating behavior, I just don’t know. I suppose being pretty fearless might make it more tempting.
All archaelogical evidence points to Neanderthals as being highly masculinized primates with high levels of testosterone, extreme mesmorphic builds with thick bones, along with wide masculinized facial features. However, they might have developed a higher reactive Sympathetic Nervous System as a result of the environment and natural selection, which would have been key to physiological advantage for survival, in an extremely cold environment.
The Domesticated features of Modern Man, are evidenced as associated with the Advent of Agriculture.
Agression and physicality became traits that are not as vital to survival, as they were among Hunters and gatherers in the type of environment that European Archaic Man or Cro-Magnon man lived in. It is not likely that successful Neanderthals or Cro-Magnons were of the "sitter type" temperment, they would have to continue to move to follow the resources.
But, the source of greater overall lower levels of extraversion, among Northern Europeans, could have resulted from the evolutionary adaptation to the cold, through changes in the Sympathetic Nervous System, along with the domestication of man through the advent of agriculture, and most currently, levels of stimulus from western developed cultures, that are unprecedented in the history of man.
It is likely that Hybrids survived as a result of hybrid vigor, in adaptation to the environment of the time of the admixture. A difference in the sympathetic nervous system could have been one of many factors of advantage. Neanderthals were likely much better adapted to the environment, than Homo Sapiens coming out of Africa, particularly the cold.
A higher reactive central nervous system is associated with Autism, Aspergers, and Introversion. However, there appears to be specific differences in the way of Brain Function with Autism And Aspergers, that aren't consistently measured among those identified as introverts.
The intelligence testing of Dawson, is interesting, in that it shows the verbal strenghs of those with Aspergers and the verbal weaknesses among those with Autism.
And, the Performance Intelligence weakness in Aspergers, and relatively stronger among those with Autism Disorder, per their verbal abilities.
There are likely differences in the brain that account for this, that on average, most introverts don't share. However, for the most part, on average, the three groups seem to share highly reactive nervous systems, and introversion as a general personality trait. This is likely different for some with other co-morbid conditions.
Adaptation to environment is the key to survival for all living things. However, the ability for primates to migrate around the world, is unusual, in the animal kingdom. In the last several hundred years though, humans have created manmade environments, that are novel for any animal experience. We adapt to amazing changes in one generation, without the slow advantage of the evolutionary process.
So, there was a huge change in environmental adaptation for homosapiens migrating out of Africa, and an admixture with an existing group of Neanderthals, already adapted.
Then continued environmental adaptation, until the time of agrarian societies. Agrarian Societies, a result of culture, changed the playing field, to one enhanced for domesticated features/behaviors, and cooperation among larger groups of human beings.
Aggression and physicality for the hunt as a necessary adaptation, was no longer as necessary in an environment where one could "sit" in one area for longer periods of time.
Now fast forward to a culture, where our masters have become the culture humans have created, many of us slaved to a screen for most of our waking hours at work and at home. The area of space, and length of time to sit in front of one object, is pretty incredible, in respect to the rest of our evolution.
In short, it is no wonder, that 50% of the population, in some western developed countries, are evidenced with introvert behavior. But, the "sitters" have likely been around much longer, as evidenced in the rest of the animal kingdom.
You will likely find a 15-20% population of sitters in every modern human population; that appears to be somewhat of a universal trait in much of the animal kingdom. But you won't likely find 50% introverted behavior in any primitive culture. Genetics appears to play a significant role in the areas of hormones, neurochemicals, and the central nervous system, but culture appears to hold the trump card in the behavioral area.
Finally, environmental change, successful adaptation to it, and hybrid vigor, can't be dismissed from the equation. Nor, from the equation from any other living thing.
It's interesting to speculate on the path that has ended up where we are.
21 Feb 2012, 3:22 am
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DemocraticSocialistHun
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27 Feb 2012, 1:00 am
DemocraticSocialistHun
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DemocraticSocialistHun
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DemocraticSocialistHun
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DemocraticSocialistHun
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DemocraticSocialistHun
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01 Mar 2012, 4:25 pm
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