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aghogday
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26 Jul 2012, 3:14 am

redrobin62 wrote:
Is it a coincidence Martin Bryant's choice of weapon, a semi-automatic AR-15, is the same one James Holmes used?


I think it is more likely a choice for an effective killing machine for a person motivated to kill a lot of people with a gun. But it is possible that Holmes got the idea from researching the other killer, as that type of information comes easy on the internet.



aghogday
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26 Jul 2012, 3:50 am

jonny23 wrote:
The firearms ban in 1994 where ban for cosmetic reasons. Rifles like the mini-14 that shoot the same round at the same rate as the AR 15 where not included. If you can show me a practical difference between these rifles I'll listen to that argument. Personally I think the rise has more to do with media attention.


I don't see a practical difference, the ban in 1994 apparently did not go far enough to be effective per your point.

However, it is only common sense that neither weapon can be legally purchased and used in a rampage killing if they are banned for sale, per the linked article below.

The question I think is what is the potential cost/benefit of banning the weapons. Is the public willing to sacrifice their freedom to purchase the weapons, if it means lives could effectively be saved. And there is also some economic and environmental impact per the gun business and environmental protection efforts generated by the federal excise taxes from selling the weapons.

Per the article below it is the only thing identified as potentially effective to reduce the carnage from rampage killings, and it does address the media attention as well. Not a problem for many unless they happen to be a target. An attempt to kill Ronald Reagan was sufficient for 1994, but the bar appears to be much, much higher now.

It probably will take few more rampage killings like this one with excessive carnage and a democrat controlled house and senate. I really don't see either of those things happening in the near future, as the type of event that happened last week is extremely rare per the extent of the damage done, and it's only going to drive more conservatives to the polls to protect a fear of losing any freedoms to purchase any type of weapon, whether they intend on purchasing one or not.

It's not just that though, there is a paranoia about the government that runs in a core element in the US, I'm not even sure if one can refer to it as a political party, that has grown deeper for some since the feared "Hussein" Obama has been elected per propaganda generated by conspiracy theorists like Info Wars, Tea Party hosted radio talk shows, Glenn Beck and others, that is evidenced more popular in rural areas, where there is a legitimate use for guns other than target practice and defense; hunting.

Some of them are actually going as far as to suggest that the government is behind the rampage killing.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201207/what-we-have-learned-about-rampage-killings



Janissy
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26 Jul 2012, 7:23 am

Surfman wrote:
possibly as in maybe
(maybe a former WP member)

Unlikely. He would have had to self-identify as autistic and there is no evidence that he did. Another thing that I think makes it unlikely is that there is no news story linking him to WP as there was very quickly when his AdultFriendFinder account was found. Jared Loughner (shot congresswoman Gifford) had an online identity in gaming forums and transcripts of his threads were in the news.



Mayel
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26 Jul 2012, 7:47 am

Janissy wrote:
Unlikely. He would have had to self-identify as autistic and there is no evidence that he did. Another thing that I think makes it unlikely is that there is no news story linking him to WP as there was very quickly when his AdultFriendFinder account was found. Jared Loughner (shot congresswoman Gifford) had an online identity in gaming forums and transcripts of his threads were in the news.

Who knows..he may have had accounts wherever but not under his real name nor his real age or anything like that. That's a possibility (which has been remarked by news outlets, too). So either he had almost no internet profiles or he deleted them or he had some with false informations about himself.
Which doesn't mean he had one here but not finding his accounts (if they exist) is probably due to false information which is not uncommon.

This article makes a brief passing on AS as a condition he could have but also on others (e.g. Schizoid and Avoidant PD).


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26 Jul 2012, 8:02 am

Janissy wrote:
Surfman wrote:
possibly as in maybe
(maybe a former WP member)

Unlikely. He would have had to self-identify as autistic and there is no evidence that he did. Another thing that I think makes it unlikely is that there is no news story linking him to WP as there was very quickly when his AdultFriendFinder account was found. Jared Loughner (shot congresswoman Gifford) had an online identity in gaming forums and transcripts of his threads were in the news.


They do say he was studying some sort of neurology/brain science as his PhD so there's a good chance he'd know something about ASD. Whether he saw himself in the symptoms/diagnostic criteria when he was studying we don't know. He could have chosen to study that particular field simply because he related to it or out of a need for self discovery.

But then again I don't want him to have AS. Oh yay another killer in the news! I know, let's call him one of our own! /sarcasm



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26 Jul 2012, 8:06 am

aghogday wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
The firearms ban in 1994 where ban for cosmetic reasons. Rifles like the mini-14 that shoot the same round at the same rate as the AR 15 where not included. If you can show me a practical difference between these rifles I'll listen to that argument. Personally I think the rise has more to do with media attention.


I don't see a practical difference, the ban in 1994 apparently did not go far enough to be effective per your point.


Than this point you made earlier is contradictory.

aghogday wrote:
There are some experts that have suggested that the legalization of the sale of semi-automatic weapons in the US, have had an impact in the uptick of the body count of rampage killings in the last couple of decades, but it's hard to prove cause and effect, other than more bullets provided in a shorter period of time do have the potential to injure more individuals. That's common sense.


aghogday wrote:
However, it is only common sense that neither weapon can be legally purchased and used in a rampage killing if they are banned for sale, per the linked article below.

The question I think is what is the potential cost/benefit of banning the weapons. Is the public willing to sacrifice their freedom to purchase the weapons, if it means lives could effectively be saved. And there is also some economic and environmental impact per the gun business and environmental protection efforts generated by the federal excise taxes from selling the weapons.


He used guns but he had explosives. Not having access to firearms would not have stopped him

aghogday wrote:
It's not just that though, there is a paranoia about the government that runs in a core element in the US, I'm not even sure if one can refer to it as a political party, that has grown deeper for some since the feared "Hussein" Obama has been elected per propaganda generated by conspiracy theorists like Info Wars, Tea Party hosted radio talk shows, Glenn Beck and others, that is evidenced more popular in rural areas, where there is a legitimate use for guns other than target practice and defense; hunting.

Some of them are actually going as far as to suggest that the government is behind the rampage killing.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201207/what-we-have-learned-about-rampage-killings


I'm not sure what this has to do with it. I love my government. I guess my bottom line points are these two

I have legitimate reasons to own guns to defend myself and my family and to provide food. (where I live these are real concerns) and owning lots of different types of guns I can tell you they are all about the same lethality wise when used by someone who's familiar with the gun. My WWII enfield is a bolt action rifle famous for rapid fire. Look up the mad minute.

Beside, after they ban the semi autos they'll go after the bolt guns as "sniper rifles" then the shotguns as "street sweepers" ect. If you believe in an outright ban on firearms then we'll have to agree to disagree but there is no logic in banning semiauto firearms or magazine capacities because anyone that knows how to run their gun is plenty fast regardless.

This guys pretty good but with a little practice pretty much anyone can do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x3lOZ4y ... re=related

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin



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26 Jul 2012, 8:14 am

Also, in reference to the article and gun availability, there is more violent crime in the US then many European countries so it's likely that there would be more mass murder here as well. I've seen many people make the connection to gun availability but have let to see evidence that supports that theory. Most people argue that it's "common sense" but to me the simpler explanation or more overall violent crime could just as easily explain this.



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26 Jul 2012, 8:19 am

Whether this creep has Aspergers or not, does not matter because people with Aspergers IS NOT bent on seeing how many others they can murder. But a psychopath has the mind set to wipe out as many people as possible and it doesn't matter what weapon is used. So, lets see this creep for what he really is and call him a PSYCHOPATH!

This creep makes me sick to even have to lay my eyes on his disgusting image. And if he don't get the death penalty, some prisoner will murder him. That is what I'm seeing happening anyhow. He has already gotten death threats from the other prisoners. I say good riddance if it happens. We don't need vermon like that and it is an insult to portray him as having Aspergers as if it were the blame.



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26 Jul 2012, 8:26 am

i think he is psychotic and not ASD.
i saw the "footage"(antiquated term) of him looking bereft of awareness of his position in reality (in the court scene) and i think his decision to do what he did must be caused by some delusory process which is devoid of realization of the consequences that occur as a result of his actions in reality.

i do not identify with him in any way, and if he was faking that behaviour in the footage i saw, then he is a master of deception and that does not seem ASD to me.

whatever be the case, there is nothing that can excuse his actions because even i (who is quite affected by autism) have a deep seated sense of what is right and wrong, and he seems to not have that sense.



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26 Jul 2012, 8:40 am

b9 wrote:

whatever be the case, there is nothing that can excuse his actions because even i (who is quite affected by autism) have a deep seated sense of what is right and wrong, and he seems to not have that sense.


Psychopaths are the ones who lack this sense...


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Dirtdigger
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26 Jul 2012, 8:44 am

Steven_Tyler77 wrote:
b9 wrote:

whatever be the case, there is nothing that can excuse his actions because even i (who is quite affected by autism) have a deep seated sense of what is right and wrong, and he seems to not have that sense.


Psychopaths are the ones who lack this sense...


:wink:



Mayel
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26 Jul 2012, 8:45 am

blue_bean wrote:
They do say he was studying some sort of neurology/brain science as his PhD so there's a good chance he'd know something about ASD. Whether he saw himself in the symptoms/diagnostic criteria when he was studying we don't know. He could have chosen to study that particular field simply because he related to it or out of a need for self discovery.

But then again I don't want him to have AS. Oh yay another killer in the news! I know, let's call him one of our own! /sarcasm

I like that sarcastic joke.

I was on the brink of specialising in Neuroscience/Neurobiology but I dropped out before. I wanted to study it because of self-understanding but also to understand others, on a rational level nonetheless. I hadn't learned anything about ASD in all my studies though, not in neurobiology or behavioral biology or even developmental biology. I don't know if I'd would have learned something about ASD if I'd have taken a Neuropsychiatry or Neuropsychology class (if I'd taken my studies further) but that's unlikely.

It really depends on the university, the research they do, their specialities and so on...not so much on the field per se.
There was an article about how if he was surrounded by "brain scientist" nobody noticed anything unusual about him (red flags). That's because you don't have to be observant of human behaviour to be such a scientist, and even if you are, it's because you study a specific mental health issue (for example) and your knowledge will only go so far.
Case in point, you'd really have to know which classes he took, which professors he had as instructors and lecturers to know if it was probable he knew something about ASD.

I don't think you can say whether he'd kill people anyway (e.g. with a bomb) if he had no access to guns, either.
His choice of weapons could've a meaning for himself. He obviously had the means and knowledge to bomb any place if he wanted to (and kill more people if this was his sole aim) but he chose to go into a crowded place and shoot at people. He shouted at them, he grabbed them, and he shooted them. He wanted to have that proximity. You can't have that with a bomb. He did make his home a possible site of explosions but it seemed to be a part of his plan. That's why he told the police about his appartment, there was a plan, there was an outcome and he reacted.
You really have to look at the individual cases and its minutiae. (All is speculation anyway)


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26 Jul 2012, 9:07 am

Steven_Tyler77 wrote:
b9 wrote:

whatever be the case, there is nothing that can excuse his actions because even i (who is quite affected by autism) have a deep seated sense of what is right and wrong, and he seems to not have that sense.


Psychopaths are the ones who lack this sense...

psychotic people also have a precarious sense of what is right or wrong.

i remember a story of a psychotic woman who beheaded her flat mate and cooked it in an oven so as to purge his foul thoughts from his brain. she came home one day and saw 2 brown raincoats soaking in the laundry tub, and she was convinced that they were the skins of murdered children, and she was horrified and felt that god directed her to slay the evil monster that she thought he was. she was wrong.

i do not think he is psychopathic. i think he is psychotic.
if he was psychopathic, then he would know that his actions would result in reduced quality of life, and psychopaths always serve themselves.

psychopaths (especially intelligent ones) always cloak their behaviour because they wish to benefit from their actions. psychotics feel they are carrying out some sort of divine retribution and they think they will be rewarded by their demons, but in reality they are captured and executed or jailed for life.

psychotics are captured quickly because they have no peripheral plan for their escape because they feel they are justified in their actions. psychopaths know that they are doing wrong but do not care, and they protect themselves with a web of deception.



b9
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26 Jul 2012, 9:08 am

Dirtdigger wrote:
:wink:


not good enough.



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26 Jul 2012, 9:17 am

Mayel wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Unlikely. He would have had to self-identify as autistic and there is no evidence that he did. Another thing that I think makes it unlikely is that there is no news story linking him to WP as there was very quickly when his AdultFriendFinder account was found. Jared Loughner (shot congresswoman Gifford) had an online identity in gaming forums and transcripts of his threads were in the news.

Who knows..he may have had accounts wherever but not under his real name nor his real age or anything like that. That's a possibility (which has been remarked by news outlets, too). So either he had almost no internet profiles or he deleted them or he had some with false informations about himself.
Which doesn't mean he had one here but not finding his accounts (if they exist) is probably due to false information which is not uncommon.

This article makes a brief passing on AS as a condition he could have but also on others (e.g. Schizoid and Avoidant PD).


Schizoid and Avoident PD huh? Considering the nature of Avoident PD I'd think someone with it would be less likely to be violent.


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26 Jul 2012, 9:21 am

b9 wrote:
Steven_Tyler77 wrote:
b9 wrote:

whatever be the case, there is nothing that can excuse his actions because even i (who is quite affected by autism) have a deep seated sense of what is right and wrong, and he seems to not have that sense.


Psychopaths are the ones who lack this sense...

psychotic people also have a precarious sense of what is right or wrong.

i remember a story of a psychotic woman who beheaded her flat mate and cooked it in an oven so as to purge his foul thoughts from his brain. she came home one day and saw 2 brown raincoats soaking in the laundry tub, and she was convinced that they were the skins of murdered children, and she was horrified and felt that god directed her to slay the evil monster that she thought he was. she was wrong.

i do not think he is psychopathic. i think he is psychotic.
if he was psychopathic, then he would know that his actions would result in reduced quality of life, and psychopaths always serve themselves.

psychopaths (especially intelligent ones) always cloak their behaviour because they wish to benefit from their actions. psychotics feel they are carrying out some sort of divine retribution and they think they will be rewarded by their demons, but in reality they are captured and executed or jailed for life.

psychotics are captured quickly because they have no peripheral plan for their escape because they feel they are justified in their actions. psychopaths know that they are doing wrong but do not care, and they protect themselves with a web of deception.


Ok wait if a 'psychotic' does not know they are doing wrong I'd think it would be pretty cruel to execute them or throw them in prison, in that case I'd say not guilty by reason of insanity makes sense. Also though there are some instances of people in a psychotic state doing violent things most people with psychotic disorders are typically less violent then the general population and more likely to be the victims of violence. At least that is what was said in my psychology class.

Trying to stereotype all people with a psychotic disorder as potential murderers is just as bad as trying to do the same for Aspergers. I like how someone kills a bunch of people and then people just want to spread stigma about various disorders about.


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