Androgynous/Youthful?

Post Reply New Topic

I was actually ID'd at the 7-Eleven down the street from where I live when I was buying Scratch n Wins one time, and I'm 37.

I hope that Joe didn't actually kill herself. I may disagree with her on many issues, but I love her like I love all of my WP family.

I look older generally. I call it the Anatoly Pisarenko effect. Pisarenko was a weightlifter.
http://www.hamiltoncrossfit.com/wp-cont ... -19831.jpg In that picture, he'd have been... 25. That's what keeping a mustache will do for you. That and speaking properly and not calling people "bro." I think some is due to me having a really "serious" demeanor a lot of the time, too.

That said, the reason I always keep some facial hair is to not look androgynous, I hate when I have long hair for that reason. I guess it's attractive, ie, bishonen in manga, but yeah. Ah well.

This sure is an interesting topic...

I'm not sure if their is a direct correlation between androgyny and a youthful appearance, however with me I do seem to fit this description, though more so when I was younger; I turn 17 in less than a week, yet somehow most people can't believe it. Also, I have been and still am called "cute" in childlike way by most people I have come into contact with. Although, despite my androgynous way of dressing, I do seem to retain rather feminine facial feature- with the help of my hair.

I definitely look my age and gender now, however as a young boy (maybe 3-5 years old) I was often mistaken for a girl. I have no idea if it's related to AS and it doesn't seem like a big deal to me - I think many kids that age look androgynous.

Well, that doesn't sound like a bad thing at all! I think most 50 year-olds would kill to be able to say that.

The first link is the full research linked from the article from SFARI that identify gender neutral measures of brain scans among individuals with Aspergers, that are normally seen as sexual dimorphic traits in males and females in control groups

http://www.ajnr.org/content/33/1/83.full

This link is for research associated with androgens and androgynous facial features in male and females with High functioning Autism(Aspergers Syndrome).


http://m.bjp.rcpsych.org/content/early/2012/03/28/bjp.bp.111.097899.abstract

And, research linked below that suggests that on average males with ASD's have normal androgen levels but higher androgen levels correlate with more severe symptoms of ASD's and lower androgen levels correlate with less severe symptoms of ASD's.

Samuel Baron Cohen was involved in the first linked research on the brain scans, and while the last link states that research casts doubt on Cohen's extreme male brain theory, all three links cast doubt per the autism spectrum as a whole, but it is worth noting that Cohen's research done almost a decade ago, showed closer to normal 2d/4d digit ratios among individuals with Aspergers as compared to those with Autism Disorder. Which does at least in part correlate with the last link that suggests that androgen levels are higher among males with ASD's that have more severe symptoms. Unfortunately, females were not included in the last study for those diagnosed with more severe symptoms, as one might expect higher androgen levels among the females as well, with more severe symptoms. I suppose future research may address that issue

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/221648/theory-autism-challenged

There is a gender identity spectrum; a sexual orientation spectrum; a morphological spectrum of sexual dimorphism seen in the facial features associated with masculine and feminine features, body type, and other morphological factors; and a spectrum of brain differences associated with gender that can be observed with brain scans.

This appears to be something commonly seen in the animal kingdom that is not specific to what is defined as an autism spectrum disorder. The neoteny.org site provides a free book that discusses an interesting theory of autism based on a feminine theory of autism rather than a masculine one.

Overall, feminine features are associated with a "domesticated" youthful appearance, so an androgynous appearance in a man would more likely be associated with youth and masculine features in a women would more likely be associated a "less domesticated mature appearance". However, there are many other factors associated other than basic bone structure from the influence of testosterone that determine a youthful appearance, depending on lifestyle.

Some women that have higher levels of testosterone are more likely to have an athletic/active type lifestyle than men with lower levels of testosterone, so it's hard to say how a youthful domesticated appearance today might look five years from now, in the same individual.

This is highly controversial, but there is an author that has spent decades studying mental disorders and suggests that conflicts associated with sexual neutrality or what he generally refers to as as bisexual conflict and the expectations of a culture that are the rule rather than the exception can create a great deal of turmoil in an individual's life associated with identity and purpose, and perhaps is a causal factor in mental illness. The theory is actually focused on schizophrenia but he has a chapter on autism.

He provides a perspective from a psychoanalytic oriented perspective, as he is not a biologist or a scientist that understands the structural differences of the brain, but his book is interesting as it is a collection of quotes from people that are similar to what one might find on an internet site like this to collect quotes to provide an anecdotal opinion, or even professional research that has been done, using information from this site. The quotes he collects are cross cultural quotes, not specific to one source that would provide a more biased view.

He refers to it as the bearded lady "disease", again it's controversial, but it is another book like the one from the neoteny.org site, from an individual that has observed patterns in life; this guy provides the patterns of thought from a wide range of quotes from many sources.

The androgyous features associated with high functioning forms of autism, has been an anecdotal note for years now in autism online communities, and now there is some research to back up that anecdotal note, as linked above.

Neutrality in sexual orientation has not been pursued in actual research,in association with ASD's, in part, because it is not a politically correct area of research to associate with a disorder.

However, sexual orientation is a universal aspect impacted by developmental factors and environment observed across the animal kingdom, not unlike the androgynous features one can find as well.

Considering that the development and structure of the brain is hormonally influenced, the factors associated are obviously more complex than the simplification the author of the "bearded lady disease" presents, but as in anecdotal reports expressed on this internet site and others, they can eventually lead to real research.

The bullying associated with androgynous features in society is recognized as a reality, regardless of actual sexual orientation and often related to it, as well, whether it is an actual factor or not.

What behavior might be associated with or eventually result from it, as a result of that bullying behavior, is dependent on the individual and how they might react to it, or attempt to adapt to it. But in this case, if somehow the cultural/environmental factors play a role in association with the biological developmental factors with what results in what is observed as behavioral impairments, how much of it is a result of an attempt at adaptation or repression from the cultural/environmental impacts associated with the biological developmental differences?

I don't think any professional has been brave enough to ask that question with formal research. The author below addresses an aspect of it that is hugely controversial, and it could explain in part why the neurodiversity movement is often compared to the LGBT rights movement and in part explain why there is so much opposition to a disease model among this subgroup of individuals on the spectrum whose difficulties and associated causal factors associated with what is observed as behavioral impairments may be significantly different than what one sees in other subgroups on the spectrum like abnormal brain growth associated with regressive autism specific to males, childhood disintegrative disorder, children on the spectrum with anomalies associated with the respiratory system, immune system problems, mitochondrial dysfunction; some of which are only identified in specific subgroups of autism.

The one research article linked above presented a unique analogy of the subgroup of individuals studied with Aspergers, with the androgynous features, as a "Gender defiant disorder".

While based on biology it doesn't sound too different that what the linked author below is suggesting based on psychological conflicts. This is an area of life that people don't usually feel comfortable in discussing in the public arena that the author finds quoted through the course of history that have made public; the conflicts associated with this issue presented are presented in an unusual and controversial manner, but interesting never the less, considering the culture we live in.

As evidenced in nature, not every animal is born to reproduce and it appears that as a result of evolution that if every animal reproduced some species might not survive. If there is another comon element often seen in anecdotal accounts from online autism communities, it is an aversion to all things associated with the actual experience of having children. It's not likely that is just a common opinion, without any biological determinants.

And, also potentially, in part, why there may be so much disconnect with parents, as there is a potential huge divide there in what potentially drives one's overall purpose in life, that can be hard to relate to if one does not share it, particularly in part, if the aversion is biological in nature.

http://www.schizophrenia-thebeardedladydisease.com/introduction.html

This is an interesting topic.

I've often wondered if there was any correlation between this sort of thing and autism in general.

I myself am male, 30 years of age. I can pass for a high-schooler if I want; I have that youthful look. Hell, nobody ever refers to me with the words "man" or "guy". EVER. It's always "boy" or "kid", or in some cases "girl". Even strangers automatically use those words instead.

And the androgynous sort of look..... I've been told really darn often that I would have an easy time passing as a girl if I wanted to (provided I used a bit of makeup and such, which I know exactly squat about). Even my body shape is femmy. Hell, I get hit on by straight guys. Specifically, straight guys who know perfectly well I'm male, yet..... simply do not care, as they are attracted ANYWAY because of my femmy aspects (and no matter how many times that one happens, it still seems really strange to me). And me wearing girl's outfits of any sort doesnt ever seem to actually SURPRISE or bother anyone. I'm into cosplay, for example (the act of dressing up as a favorite character from anime or video games, generally done at anime conventions), and I've always gone with either male characters who are really girly (as I like that sort of thing), or female characters. When I started doing this, friends and family generally gave a sort of "Yeah, that's kinda what I expected you to choose for this, it actually looks good on you" kind of reaction, over and over again. If I were to actually try dressing up as a more masculine character, THEN people would laugh at me, lol.

The whole thing can be bizarre at times, and my autistic attributes can be bizarre as well, so...... often wondered if they might be connected somehow, if this sort of appearance was at all common among autistics.


......and I've totally forgotten where I was going with this. I really hate when that happens.

That's sorta interesting. I'm using a Chinese tea that basically amplifies the hormones in your body, and I'm a lot more confident. However, my problem is, when I go through "confident streaks" I end up just being more oblivious to social things, but I'm more confident and just don't care. Then again, I fall more into the category of "active but odd" Aspergers people, actually am normally pretty outgoing.

So THIS is why I get people laughing at me in the street, it's because I look like a man. Well if I'm going to have to have this s**t for the rest of my life I'm going to never go out then commit suicide. I KNEW this c**t called Asperger f*****g Syndrome had something to do with why I look so f*****g weird (after all the places I've read about there NOT being any noticeable physical differences in AS, I actually found that quite relieving until I read this f*****g s**t).

It seems other people here seem to love looking like the opposite sex. I suppose it doesn't upset anyone else when they get people mocking them in public.

Er. Just because you have Asperger's does not instantly make you look like the opposite sex. It's just that it seems relatively common among autistics to have somewhat androgynous features. It very much doesnt mean all autistics have this. NT people can have it just the same.

And really, appearances CAN be changed, with some effort. THough, that's the key word there, "effort". If you dont like the way you look, put some time into trying to change it.

As far as the mocking goes..... just try to ignore it. Not always easy, I know. I've gotten it sometimes myself. But then I also rather like my androgyny, so I just dont let those other people bother me.

Also, more androgynous doesn't have to mean looking completely androgynous, and it certainly doesn't looking like the opposite sex. A slightly androgynous appearance can be extremely attractive, like what Heather Kuzmich has.

Aye, that too.

There are plenty out there that really LIKE that sort of look.

I get hit on alot myself (ONLY by guys though.... not that I mind that, but it's still a bit odd), and I'm betting others with that sort of look probably get hit on alot as well..... depends on where you are and wether the people around you like that sort of thing. Everyone's tastes vary so much, really.

And of course some..... such as myself..... can also have gender issues of some sort, so having that sort of look is.... often not a bad thing for them.


And finally..... it's something a bit different than the norm, and I think that's a GOOD thing. There's already 80 quaglescillion people out there that are obsessed with the idea that they MUST conform to a certain "norm" that society decides on. Someone being different from that..... not a bad thing at all. There are those that might THINK it's a bad thing, and might be total jerkwads about it, but..... that says more about their level of maturity than it does about the person they are mocking.


I forgot what else I was gonna say.

Well not every Aspie likes being different, and some of us wants to fit in, and so being different is not a good thing when you have phobias of being judged (as you can sort of tell by my signature). I've managed to make it so I can pass off as normal, didn't know I now look different. No wonder I get black looks from other women.

I've got a feminine shape figure, not sure about my stupid face, some mirrors it looks rounded, other mirrors it looks long and narrow. Same goes for photos, depending on which way the light is.

Here is a link that provides actual details from the study associated with androgyny and ASD's. It was also noted in the study that DHEAS did not decrease with age, as compared to control groups, detailed in the linked article. There is the potential that this has something to do with why some individuals on the spectrum retain their youthful appearance into middle age, which merits further research. The article also provides graphs on the extent of the androgynous differences that were noted per specific characteristics.

Quotes are not possible from the article as the copy feature is disabled, probably to insure there is no copyright infringement, as I have not been able to find the full version of the research anywhere else.

http://keithsneuroblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/autism-gender-defiant-disorder.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone_sulfate

Some of the measurements of androgyny were not significant as one can see this in the actual measurements chart provided. The DHEAS finding might have been a more significant preliminary finding, per further research, as far as youthful characteristics into middle age.

Last edited by aghogday on 02 Sep 2012, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Interesting regarding the DHEA. DHEA is taken in bodybuilding circles as basically a psuedo-steroid. So does this mean I'll be 60 years old and able to deadlift 1000lbs and look like a male underwear model? That'd be sweet.

I'm thinking there were probably not any individuals in the study that were above the age of 50, but one will probably be able to find that out when the full study is released. According to the tables from the Wiki article, (it is worth noting that DHEAS is a metabolite of DHEA made by the adrenal glands), DHEAS drops significantly in the 3rd decade of life. The adrenal glands are a source of testosterone in males and females. And from an animal perspective I suppose that differences in these hormones may be associated with why some cats retain their aggressive nature more than others, after they are neutered, depending on the amount of these hormones produced by the adrenal glands. Additional research in this area will be interesting, and this is part of the problem of research, on ASD's in general, as very little research has been done on adults on the spectrum.

The anecdotes have been provided on sites like this, and the research is starting to reflect some of those anecdotes but it is still a new area of research, where the findings must be replicated, as the study was small and the findings on androgyny were not earth shattering results. The DHEA results though, were very interesting, and likely unexpected.