Neanderthal theory has been updated

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hyperlexian
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21 Mar 2013, 7:20 am

rdos wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

i think they were referring to ancestry, not where people moved in recent years. i suppose you could read the actual study, as my beliefs are not really relevant.

OK, but then how could you use one definition (only ancestry) when proving that no Neanderthal DNA exists in Sub-Saharan Africa, then a totally different when you refer to the possible prevalence of ASD? Besides, I'm pretty sure there is no ancestry-based prevalence studies of ASD in Sub-Saharan Africa, and I doubt there are even any total-population studies that used a representative sample, so therefore you assertion that ASD is just as common in Africa as anywhere else is not supported by any scientific research.

how do you know what definition i would be using when discussing the prevalence of ASDs?

the prevalence of autism in subsaharan black people can be roughly evaluated by looking at descendants of emigrants because the diagnosis and statistical reporting in that area is imperfect. this is also not a best-case scenario because environmental factors may have an impact on prevalence, but it may serve as a benchmark. these figures were selected (by a biologist) because their ancestors originated from subsaharan africa:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... 2.htm#tab2

back to the main point - this region DOES NOT have neanderthal genes, yet it DOES have autism in the indigenous population, in some incidence. that kind of makes your theory irrelevant.

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eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 7:23 am

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

From http://globalhealthafrica.org/2012/11/10/170/:

Quote:

The earliest research on autism in Africa was carried out by Victor Lotter as far back as 1978. His research was carried out in 6 African countries. The result of his research was a low prevalence of autism. However, his research methods appeared to be flawed. Since then, not a lot of a studies has been carried out on this disorder. The prevalence rate in the various countries on the continent is unknown. Outside the African continent, it has been observed that children born to Africans immigrants in Europe exhibit a higher prevalence of autism compared to the indigenous population.

No, I know exactly which data this relies on, and it is faulty. These families were involved in following the Swedish government so they could stay in Sweden. Once they were caught, the epidemic seemed to go away itself. Besides, there is no evidence whatsoever that vitamin D has a causative role for ASD in Africans, and instead, if these children really had something caused by vitamin D, it certainly wasn't ASD.

Actually, the research is into low levels of Vitamin D in the mothers while the fetus is developing. There is also research into the levels of Vitamin D in children as well.

From http://www.news-medical.net/news/20121214/Study-finds-new-evidence-that-vitamin-D-decreases-risk-of-autism-in-children.aspx:

Quote:

A study just published online in the peer-reviewed journal Dermato-Endocrinology found additional evidence that vitamin D reduces the risk of developing autism (Grant and Cannell, 2012). The study examined the variation of autism prevalence by state for those aged 6-17 years in 2010. It found that states with higher solar ultraviolet-B (UVB) doses in summer or autumn had half the rate of autism as states with the lowest doses. The study also found that in the states with the least solar UVB, black-Americans had a 40% higher rate of autism than white-Americans. Black-Americans have lower vitamin D or serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] concentrations due to their darker skin and since solar UVB is the primary source of vitamin D for most Americans.

...

Regarding maternal vitamin D deficiency, other studies have found adverse effects on fetal brain development during the third trimester of pregnancy related to vitamin D deficiency, including increased risk of schizophrenia and language difficulties. Also, increased risk of autism related to springtime births has been reported in several studies.

One of the mechanisms whereby vitamin D might reduce the risk of autism is through reducing the risk of sporadic DNA mutations from influencing fetal development. Another is through reducing the risk of influenza and other infectious diseases during pregnancy, which have been linked to increased risk of schizophrenia. Also, vitamin D reduces inflammation by shifting cytokine production towards less inflammatory cytokines.

rdos
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21 Mar 2013, 7:28 am

eric76 wrote:

Actually, the research is into low levels of Vitamin D in the mothers while the fetus is developing. There is also research into the levels of Vitamin D in children as well.

I can guarantee you that no neurodiversity trait is correlated with Vitamin D, and thus that Vitamin D has no significans for the Neanderthal connection.

eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 7:35 am

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

Actually, the research is into low levels of Vitamin D in the mothers while the fetus is developing. There is also research into the levels of Vitamin D in children as well.

I can guarantee you that no neurodiversity trait is correlated with Vitamin D, and thus that Vitamin D has no significans for the Neanderthal connection.

You seem to be the only person who uses the term "neurodiversity trait".

So why don't you list the neurodiversity traits? Keeping them only to yourself does nothing for your credibility.

rdos
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21 Mar 2013, 8:41 am

hyperlexian wrote:

the prevalence of autism in subsaharan black people can be roughly evaluated by looking at descendants of emigrants because the diagnosis and statistical reporting in that area is imperfect. this is also not a best-case scenario because environmental factors may have an impact on prevalence, but it may serve as a benchmark. these figures were selected (by a biologist) because their ancestors originated from subsaharan africa:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... 2.htm#tab2

OK, so now we are getting somewhere

First we made the usual round: "there is autism in Africa but not Neanderthal genes". That ended up with no scientific evidence for the position that autism is just as common in Africa as outside of Africa (as it always does).

Next, we then need to study immigrants in some western country (usually the US). So know you claim that study of diagnosed ASD is useful for disproving the Neanderthal theory. However, this is once not the case, since the Neanderthal theory doesn't deal directly with ASD, and in fact doesn't even propose that the entire ASD phenotype can be explained with Neanderthal ancestry. What the theory claims is the neurodiversity (the scientific version, not the opinion-based) can be explained by Neanderthal ancestry. Thus what we want to know is the prevelance of neurodiversity in some immigrant group in some western country (preferentially the US). This study has been done in Aspie Quiz, and shows that African American level of neurodiversity is about 1/5th the typical.

rdos
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21 Mar 2013, 8:44 am

eric76 wrote:

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

Actually, the research is into low levels of Vitamin D in the mothers while the fetus is developing. There is also research into the levels of Vitamin D in children as well.

I can guarantee you that no neurodiversity trait is correlated with Vitamin D, and thus that Vitamin D has no significans for the Neanderthal connection.

You seem to be the only person who uses the term "neurodiversity trait".

So why don't you list the neurodiversity traits? Keeping them only to yourself does nothing for your credibility.

If you want to prove that Vitamin D is correlated to neurodiversity, I can help you in giving your study population a neurodiversity score, but you will need to assert their Vitamin D status yourself.

Tyri0n
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21 Mar 2013, 8:45 am

eric76 wrote:

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

From http://globalhealthafrica.org/2012/11/10/170/:

Quote:

But is low Vitamin D the cause of autism or is it itself a secondary effect of the cause of autism? I have no doubt deficiency can make things worse; even as an adult, my functioning improved a lot when I started taking it. It's also true that stress and inflammation, among other things, may reduce a person's ability to absorb Vitamin D, thus causing a deficiency.

I have read that further studies on the African immigrants in Sweden concluded that the autism rates there were related to stress, rather than sun deprivation.

rdos
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21 Mar 2013, 9:28 am

eric76 wrote:

So why don't you list the neurodiversity traits? Keeping them only to yourself does nothing for your credibility.

Sure. Would a list with factor loadings for 1,759 possible neurodiversity traits be enough for you?
Link; http://www.rdos.net/eng/aspeval/

Geekonychus
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21 Mar 2013, 10:12 am

Is it at all possible that the real reason for the disparity is the lack of actual legit autism research in Subsaharian Africa? It's almost as if they have more important things to dedicate their time and money to over there. :wink:

eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 2:41 pm

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

Actually, the research is into low levels of Vitamin D in the mothers while the fetus is developing. There is also research into the levels of Vitamin D in children as well.

I can guarantee you that no neurodiversity trait is correlated with Vitamin D, and thus that Vitamin D has no significans for the Neanderthal connection.

You seem to be the only person who uses the term "neurodiversity trait".

So why don't you list the neurodiversity traits? Keeping them only to yourself does nothing for your credibility.

I'm not trying to prove that Vitamin D is a cause of or promote Autism. All I said was that there is research going on in the subject and that there is some reason to think that some good may come out of that research.

One attraction to the idea is that if maternal deficiencies of Vitamin D does promote the development of Autism in fetuses, then raising Vitamin D levels in those women who are hoping to become pregnant should not generally be all that difficult. The bigger danger is for unplanned pregnancies, especially those that are not discovered for a while, since at least some of the damage may have already been done by the time the pregnancy is discovered.

Don't forget that there are some women who genuinely never even realize they are pregnant until they have the baby.

eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 2:47 pm

Tyri0n wrote:

eric76 wrote:

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

From http://globalhealthafrica.org/2012/11/10/170/:

Quote:

This is sheer speculation on my part, but it might be that low levels of maternal Vitamin D could possibly have its more serious effects on fetuses carrying various genes that put the fetus at a higher risk of Autism. On the other hand, it might be more or less random.

And there are almost certainly going to be cases of Autism that are unrelated to Vitamin D. There doesn't appear to be any reason to suppose that all cases of Autism arise from a single cause.

paxfilosoof
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21 Mar 2013, 2:49 pm

Dear M. Rdos,

I have something very nice for you!

click on autism theory!

I think your neanderthaler hypothesis is good but not the way you're proving it.

Last edited by paxfilosoof on 21 Mar 2013, 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eric76
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21 Mar 2013, 2:53 pm

rdos wrote:

eric76 wrote:

So why don't you list the neurodiversity traits? Keeping them only to yourself does nothing for your credibility.

Sure. Would a list with factor loadings for 1,759 possible neurodiversity traits be enough for you?
Link; http://www.rdos.net/eng/aspeval/

Earlier in this thread, you made the claim:

rdos wrote:

I can guarantee you that no neurodiversity trait is correlated with Vitamin D, and thus that Vitamin D has no significans for the Neanderthal connection.

I'm a little puzzled how you can rule out Vitamin D based on that. It's not even on your list of "possible neurodiversity traits".

rdos
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21 Mar 2013, 5:19 pm

eric76 wrote:

I'm a little puzzled how you can rule out Vitamin D based on that. It's not even on your list of "possible neurodiversity traits".

No, but there are a few other physical traits, and they all have insignificant relevance and low factor loadings. I just extrapolated those. :wink:

Cafeaulait
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23 Mar 2013, 7:26 am

rdos wrote:

Ettina wrote:

The Neanderthal theory should be scrapped. Autism is no more common among northern europeans than in any other race. Clearly, it has nothing to do with Neanderthals.

That is disproved in the Aspie Quiz paper. Not yet published, but regardless if it is published or not, the fact still stand that people of African descent has several magnitudes lower incidence of neurodiversity.

It's also not like you think that neurodiversity is highest in northern europeans. It is actually highest in native american indians.

What is 'neurodiversity?'

Don't you mean 'neuropathology'?

rdos
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23 Mar 2013, 8:23 am

Cafeaulait wrote:

What is 'neurodiversity?'

I defined it in a scientific manner previously: Neurodiversity is the primary factor output by factor analysis of a dataset of human preferences data which contains evenly distributed traits of all sorts that covers all of human diversity.

In more popular notation it could be defined: Neurodiversity is the sum of all human traits linked to autistic personality traits.

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