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SaveFerris
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02 Jul 2017, 6:09 am

JohnnyLurg wrote:
Ashariel wrote:
I'm confused by 'ableism' as well. OP is asking about whether people can legally get away with ableism, and I think the legal term is 'discrimination', and it only applies to businesses and government agencies. There is no law against ordinary people calling you names, or making derogatory judgments about you.


What do you think hate crimes are? Do you think it's legal for a white person to call a black person the N word outside of the workplace?


I've always considered that a hate crime but in the UK that is considered a hate incident not a hate crime

Quote:
What are hate incidents and hate crime?

Hate incidents and hate crime are acts of violence or hostility directed at people because of who they are or who someone thinks they are.

For example, you may have been verbally abused by someone in the street because you’re disabled or someone thought you were gay.

If you’ve experienced a hate incident or hate crime you can report it to the police.

Read this page to find out more about hate incidents and hate crime.
What are hate incidents?

The police and Crown Prosecution Service have agreed a common definition of hate incidents.

They say something is a hate incident if the victim or anyone else think it was motivated by hostility or prejudice based on one of the following things:

disability
race
religion
transgender identity
sexual orientation.

This means that if you believe something is a hate incident it should be recorded as such by the person you are reporting it to. All police forces record hate incidents based on these five personal characteristics.

Anyone can be the victim of a hate incident. For example, you may have been targeted because someone thought you were gay even though you’re not, or because you have a disabled child.
Other personal characteristics

Some police forces also record hate incidents based on other personal characteristics such as age.

In particular, Greater Manchester Police now recognises alternative sub-culture hate incidents. These are incidents based on someone’s appearance and include Goths, Emos, Punks and other similar groups. This means they will also record any such incidents as a hate incident.
What type of incidents can be a hate incident?

Hate incidents can take many forms. Here are examples of hate incidents:

verbal abuse like name-calling and offensive jokes
harassment
bullying or intimidation by children, adults, neighbours or strangers
physical attacks such as hitting, punching, pushing, spitting
threats of violence
hoax calls, abusive phone or text messages, hate mail
online abuse for example on Facebook or Twitter
displaying or circulating discriminatory literature or posters
harm or damage to things such as your home, pet, vehicle
graffiti
arson
throwing rubbish into a garden
malicious complaints for example over parking, smells or noise.

When is a hate incident also a hate crime?

When hate incidents become criminal offences they are known as hate crimes. A criminal offence is something which breaks the law of the land.

Any criminal offence can be a hate crime if it was carried out because of hostility or prejudice based on disability, race, religion, transgender identity or sexual orientation.

When something is classed as a hate crime, the judge can impose a tougher sentence on the offender under the Criminal Justice Act 2003.

Incidents which are based on other personal characteristics, such as age and belonging to an alternative subculture, are not considered to be hate crimes under the law. You can still report these, but they will not be prosecuted specifically as hate crimes by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service.
Examples of hate crimes

Here are examples of hate crimes:

assaults
criminal damage
harassment
murder
sexual assault
theft
fraud
burglary
hate mail (Malicious Communications Act 1988)
causing harassment, alarm or distress (Public Order Act 1988).


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Ashariel
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02 Jul 2017, 9:15 am

JohnnyLurg wrote:
Ashariel wrote:
I'm confused by 'ableism' as well. OP is asking about whether people can legally get away with ableism, and I think the legal term is 'discrimination', and it only applies to businesses and government agencies. There is no law against ordinary people calling you names, or making derogatory judgments about you.


What do you think hate crimes are? Do you think it's legal for a white person to call a black person the N word outside of the workplace?


I'm sorry about that comment, and I should clarify - I abhor unkindness in any form, toward anyone.

Hate crimes are literally crimes - meaning they involve violence, and break actual laws. But there is no law against name-calling outside of the workplace, so yes, your example would technically be legal.

Should it be legal, is another question. If we tried to pass a law against name-calling, our police force, court system, and prisons would be overwhelmed, so from a realistic standpoint I don't think that could work. (But that could be the 'internalized ableism' ASPartOfMe spoke of - I am definitely guilty of feeling like I don't deserve anything better.)



Goth Fairy
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02 Jul 2017, 12:10 pm

BirdInFlight wrote:

There is even a current TV show which is hosted by a British man who announces throughout the show not just that he is autistic but that he "has Asperger's."


Which show is that?


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SaveFerris
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02 Jul 2017, 12:32 pm

Goth Fairy wrote:
BirdInFlight wrote:

There is even a current TV show which is hosted by a British man who announces throughout the show not just that he is autistic but that he "has Asperger's."


Which show is that?


I'm guessing Springwatch with Chris Packham


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boofle
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02 Jul 2017, 12:36 pm

SaveFerris wrote:
Goth Fairy wrote:
BirdInFlight wrote:

There is even a current TV show which is hosted by a British man who announces throughout the show not just that he is autistic but that he "has Asperger's."


Which show is that?


I'm guessing Springwatch with Chris Packham


Nuh-uh. It's this...

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the- ... c-gardener



SaveFerris
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02 Jul 2017, 1:16 pm

boofle wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:
Goth Fairy wrote:
BirdInFlight wrote:

There is even a current TV show which is hosted by a British man who announces throughout the show not just that he is autistic but that he "has Asperger's."


Which show is that?


I'm guessing Springwatch with Chris Packham


Nuh-uh. It's this...

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the- ... c-gardener


Is it any good ?

Edit: I've also got 'Nuh-uh' spinning round my head :lol:


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fluter
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02 Jul 2017, 4:13 pm

[quote=

Disabled people hate this attitude, and believe that non-disabled people should learn more about the struggles of disabled people.[/quote]

I think that ableism also describes the attitude that normal ways of understanding and approaching the world are automatically "better" than alternative ways, simply because there is some label of "disabled" attached to the alternative. The label, "disabled" has been used throughout history to describe all sorts of problems that in today's society are considered small challenges or simply individual differences, and to call them a disability would be considered ludicrous. For example, erectile disfunction used to be categorised as a disability, as was insomnia.

So, to add on to some of the definitions above, I'll add that I wish that non-aspergers people would not only learn about some of the struggles that aspergers people endure, I wish that they would realise that their point of view is not automatically correct in relation to mine, simply because their thinking style is more widely shared.



fluter
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02 Jul 2017, 4:38 pm

So to clarify, the definitions for "able" vs. "disabled" have varied throughout history, and are vulnerable to the particular forces which are shaping society at the moment.

So to call someone disabled simply because they organise information in a different (often a more careful, fair, and flexible* way)than most of the people you meet is really an act of drawing a line in the sand. [drawing a line in the sand=a metaphor for taking a firm stand on the basis of something that is in fact temporary.]

*yes I said flexible! So many studies in psychology show that neurotypicals (another ridiculous word, but useful in this context, so why not? Everyone else is careless in their application of justice....) neurotypicals make most of their choices using heuristics like "first" "last", "most frequent", "two parameters visibly matching", etc. instead of actually analysing and categorising the parts of whatever decision they're trying to make. They claim that this makes them more efficient than me! But it is nothing more than an excuse to uphold social order. Hence the disgusting POTUS.

Oh, one of my favorite disabilities from past societies: left-handedness.

I know this post has hairs dangling about....people who assume I want to be "changed" are pissing me off this week [yes, this is a good example of ableism!] so I'm in a mood.

--hairs dangling about= a lot of different ideas that are connected but the nature of their connection is not well expressed by the writing.



AspieUtah
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02 Jul 2017, 4:53 pm

JohnnyLurg wrote:
Ashariel wrote:
I'm confused by 'ableism' as well. OP is asking about whether people can legally get away with ableism, and I think the legal term is 'discrimination', and it only applies to businesses and government agencies. There is no law against ordinary people calling you names, or making derogatory judgments about you.

What do you think hate crimes are? Do you think it's legal for a white person to call a black person the N word outside of the workplace?

Epithets aren't hate crimes per se unless they are accompanied by criminal action. And, while it is legal to "call a black person the N word[,]" doing so falls under the "fighting words" doctrine of the U.S. Supreme Court whereby the perpetrator of such words might earn a black eye with little resistence from law-enforcement agencies and their officers since it is expected that certain words, phrases and gestures have an understandable reaction from those against whom the words, phrases and gestures are applied. Fighting words aren't hate crimes unless they are accompanied by criminal action.


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Judas
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03 Jul 2017, 2:17 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wish the term "ableism" was taken out of our vocabulary. There is nothing wrong with being "able."


If people didn't expect me to do s**t, I would never get s**t done. Everyone has a minimum basline of what you can expect from a human being. I think "dis-abeling" people telling them they can't do this or that is far more detrimental, since they will only stagnate and continue to not function.



boofle
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03 Jul 2017, 11:44 am

SaveFerris wrote:

Is it any good ?

Edit: I've also got 'Nuh-uh' spinning round my head :lol:



i quite like "nuh-uh"...couldn't really tell you why :lol:

re the proggie, i'd say it's worth a watch...here's a thread Birdy has done where we are talking about it. feel free to join in if you decide to catch up with it and tell us your views. maybe see you there! :)

viewtopic.php?t=347621