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naturalplastic
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23 Nov 2023, 8:27 pm

Lost_dragon wrote:
Personally I mess up with words less, aside from the line skipping. That's why I use my reading ruler.

Although there is a brand called Ciao Baby and I often misread it as Chaos Baby and personally I think that's the better name. :lol:


Like "yacht" "chee-ow" is a loan word. Yacht is from Dutch.

"Ciao" is Italian...in which C is usually pronounced "ch" and "i" is a long E. It means "hasta la Vista baby" (until later).

I mishear song lyrics sometimes and when I learn the real lyrics sometimes I like my version better. The German group Kraftwerk had the song "Autobahn" in which they sing in robotic fashion "farhfen farfen farfen un zee autobahn" (driving driving driving on the autobahn). But I heard it as "fun fun fun on zee autobahn". I like my version better. Lol!



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23 Nov 2023, 9:36 pm

Patrick22348 wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
Some people think that everyone can learn math, the question is if they understand that when you reach a limit before Dyscalculia manifests.


In my experience, you actually need to learn indexing (basically recording and sorting out random data) before you learn math. Rather than be good at math, be good with inputting and sorting data so you get a feel for individual numbers and how different numbers are just a count different "things" so to speak, for example, 5 apples on monday. You should make lists of stuff you do, such as things you bought, did, etc, put them on excel and this should stimulate your brain on conceptualizing numbers.

When you do learn math all you need is understanding of fractions and percentages if you want to apply it for work. Do not bother with academic pursuits that must require math. Be really understanding of multiplication, division, subtraction and addition for fractions, this is all you need. Don't bother with algebra, don't bother with teachers who don't understand your Dyscalculia.

While do I believe that dyscalculia is a real thing and not just an excuse, I do wonder whether at least some cases of "dyscalculia" might actually be a failure in the way that math was taught to the person, rather than an intrinsic inability to learn math per se. I suspect that different people may need to learn math in different ways, whereas the education system has too much of a one-size-fits-all approach.


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23 Nov 2023, 9:44 pm

I was pretty good at teaching math as I use multiple methods to arrive at the correct answers.
What was surprising was that I could remember what I learned decades ago and teach it to someone else on the spot! Not sure if that is something that is related to autism.

At work folks would refer math issues to me.



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24 Nov 2023, 12:16 pm

I have dyscalculia and it makes me feel really stupid sometimes. I will never be able to have a job because of it. When I go shopping I never know how much everything will cost because of stupid taxes, and the insanely rising prices have made it even worse. I don't know how much I need to tip people so I can forget having takeout delivered to my house, the price of it without the tip is insane anyway. When I get my hair cut my mom gives me 5 dollars to tip the hairdresser, so I know that at least. At least I don't live in the States where you're supposed to tip everyone at least 50 dollars for everything, and they'll still chase after you saying you didn't tip them enough, that happened to my mom and my aunt once when they took a trip to New York, ha ha.

On the other hand, as a kid I had hyperlexia. I got a lot of praise from teachers and other adults for being able to read so well at my age, but if it happened now some people might be thinking, "Oh no, that means she's autistic and her parent's lives are going to be ruined". :roll:



Patrick22348
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24 Nov 2023, 3:32 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Patrick22348 wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
Some people think that everyone can learn math, the question is if they understand that when you reach a limit before Dyscalculia manifests.


In my experience, you actually need to learn indexing (basically recording and sorting out random data) before you learn math. Rather than be good at math, be good with inputting and sorting data so you get a feel for individual numbers and how different numbers are just a count different "things" so to speak, for example, 5 apples on monday. You should make lists of stuff you do, such as things you bought, did, etc, put them on excel and this should stimulate your brain on conceptualizing numbers.

When you do learn math all you need is understanding of fractions and percentages if you want to apply it for work. Do not bother with academic pursuits that must require math. Be really understanding of multiplication, division, subtraction and addition for fractions, this is all you need. Don't bother with algebra, don't bother with teachers who don't understand your Dyscalculia.

While do I believe that dyscalculia is a real thing and not just an excuse, I do wonder whether at least some cases of "dyscalculia" might actually be a failure in the way that math was taught to the person, rather than an intrinsic inability to learn math per se. I suspect that different people may need to learn math in different ways, whereas the education system has too much of a one-size-fits-all approach.


I believe there are two types of Dyscalculia people.

One is inherently unable to conceptualize number.

Two is that they are taught and made dyslexic, by bad math education, therefore their conceptualization of numbers is distorted.

This failure in education I believe is that lack of appreciation for teaching fundamental concepts of numbers, that it is just a count of how many things there are. Also, the most fundemental blocks of learning, such as fractions, are pushed down and they call it "primary school math" (when it infact should be called "fundemental basic math"), which immediately turns people off from trying to learn, as they don't want to be considered primary school level students.


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24 Nov 2023, 7:20 pm

Patrick22348 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Patrick22348 wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
Some people think that everyone can learn math, the question is if they understand that when you reach a limit before Dyscalculia manifests.


In my experience, you actually need to learn indexing (basically recording and sorting out random data) before you learn math. Rather than be good at math, be good with inputting and sorting data so you get a feel for individual numbers and how different numbers are just a count different "things" so to speak, for example, 5 apples on monday. You should make lists of stuff you do, such as things you bought, did, etc, put them on excel and this should stimulate your brain on conceptualizing numbers.

When you do learn math all you need is understanding of fractions and percentages if you want to apply it for work. Do not bother with academic pursuits that must require math. Be really understanding of multiplication, division, subtraction and addition for fractions, this is all you need. Don't bother with algebra, don't bother with teachers who don't understand your Dyscalculia.

While do I believe that dyscalculia is a real thing and not just an excuse, I do wonder whether at least some cases of "dyscalculia" might actually be a failure in the way that math was taught to the person, rather than an intrinsic inability to learn math per se. I suspect that different people may need to learn math in different ways, whereas the education system has too much of a one-size-fits-all approach.


I believe there are two types of Dyscalculia people.

One is inherently unable to conceptualize number.

Two is that they are taught and made dyslexic, by bad math education, therefore their conceptualization of numbers is distorted.

This failure in education I believe is that lack of appreciation for teaching fundamental concepts of numbers, that it is just a count of how many things there are. Also, the most fundemental blocks of learning, such as fractions, are pushed down and they call it "primary school math" (when it infact should be called "fundemental basic math"), which immediately turns people off from trying to learn, as they don't want to be considered primary school level students.


Can you explain it a bit better?



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25 Nov 2023, 12:03 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Patrick22348 wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
Some people think that everyone can learn math, the question is if they understand that when you reach a limit before Dyscalculia manifests.


In my experience, you actually need to learn indexing (basically recording and sorting out random data) before you learn math. Rather than be good at math, be good with inputting and sorting data so you get a feel for individual numbers and how different numbers are just a count different "things" so to speak, for example, 5 apples on monday. You should make lists of stuff you do, such as things you bought, did, etc, put them on excel and this should stimulate your brain on conceptualizing numbers.

When you do learn math all you need is understanding of fractions and percentages if you want to apply it for work. Do not bother with academic pursuits that must require math. Be really understanding of multiplication, division, subtraction and addition for fractions, this is all you need. Don't bother with algebra, don't bother with teachers who don't understand your Dyscalculia.

While do I believe that dyscalculia is a real thing and not just an excuse, I do wonder whether at least some cases of "dyscalculia" might actually be a failure in the way that math was taught to the person, rather than an intrinsic inability to learn math per se. I suspect that different people may need to learn math in different ways, whereas the education system has too much of a one-size-fits-all approach.


That is difficult to know, I was thought math in different ways, but mostly in a way you mentioned.



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25 Nov 2023, 11:05 am

FranzOren wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Patrick22348 wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
Some people think that everyone can learn math, the question is if they understand that when you reach a limit before Dyscalculia manifests.


In my experience, you actually need to learn indexing (basically recording and sorting out random data) before you learn math. Rather than be good at math, be good with inputting and sorting data so you get a feel for individual numbers and how different numbers are just a count different "things" so to speak, for example, 5 apples on monday. You should make lists of stuff you do, such as things you bought, did, etc, put them on excel and this should stimulate your brain on conceptualizing numbers.

When you do learn math all you need is understanding of fractions and percentages if you want to apply it for work. Do not bother with academic pursuits that must require math. Be really understanding of multiplication, division, subtraction and addition for fractions, this is all you need. Don't bother with algebra, don't bother with teachers who don't understand your Dyscalculia.

While do I believe that dyscalculia is a real thing and not just an excuse, I do wonder whether at least some cases of "dyscalculia" might actually be a failure in the way that math was taught to the person, rather than an intrinsic inability to learn math per se. I suspect that different people may need to learn math in different ways, whereas the education system has too much of a one-size-fits-all approach.


That is difficult to know, I was thought math in different ways, but mostly in a way you mentioned.


I think with dyscalcula, that the cause of dyscalcula in its root, is caused by a lack of appreciation for indexing and counting numbers. Indexing just means, sorting, filtering and understanding data on excel.

In excel, when someone is counting how many things there are, for which day, for who and what etc, it creates an inherent use of numbers, like there were x amount of sales on monday, that there were x amount of mondays that there were sales above x amount, etc. So this is the basic use of logic filtering with numbers.

Why I think fractions is important is because it goes above this basic logic of counting and it explores multiplication and division. This is a bit more complicated but basically it teaches people how to deal with numbers in parts, and if someone is always drilling with multiplication and divisions etc, eventually they should self realize some things like order of operations, which is hard to explain by a teacher.

People also get put off by learning fractions, as it's considered the most elementary math, rather than fundamental.

I had to think about the answer actually alot hence the late reply.


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25 Nov 2023, 3:05 pm

I suspect a big part of the confusion is that most people have heard of dyslexia, but most people have not heard of dyscalculia.

Most people with dyslexia can learn to read with special training. Read is binary - you can or you can't (you just might not know what some of the words mean). It's fairly well understood.

Dyscalculia is far less well understood. It presents itself in more varied degrees than dyslexia. Math is also a much more multi-tiered concept that language.

For me, math was always my weakest subject and I especially struggled at calculus and other college-level math. However, it is more noticeably represented by my difficulties doing any math in my head (I'm much better if I write it down), with counting things, and in remembering a string of digits (like a phone number) in the correct order.

Lost_dragon wrote:
My issues were often dismissed because I was told that if I really had such difficulties then I'd also be bad at spelling


Either they're conflating dyscalculia with dyslexia and/or they're shockingly unfamiliar with the fact that most people are either good at math or good at language, but rarely excel at both.

It also seems like people rarely have dyscalcia AND dyslexia; it's usually one or the other. Especially with autistics, who are more likely to have dyslexia and hypercalculia, or hyerlexia and dyscalculia.



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25 Nov 2023, 9:55 pm

Weight Of Memory wrote:
I suspect a big part of the confusion is that most people have heard of dyslexia, but most people have not heard of dyscalculia.

Most people with dyslexia can learn to read with special training. Read is binary - you can or you can't (you just might not know what some of the words mean). It's fairly well understood.

Dyscalculia is far less well understood. It presents itself in more varied degrees than dyslexia. Math is also a much more multi-tiered concept that language.

For me, math was always my weakest subject and I especially struggled at calculus and other college-level math. However, it is more noticeably represented by my difficulties doing any math in my head (I'm much better if I write it down), with counting things, and in remembering a string of digits (like a phone number) in the correct order.

Lost_dragon wrote:
My issues were often dismissed because I was told that if I really had such difficulties then I'd also be bad at spelling


Either they're conflating dyscalculia with dyslexia and/or they're shockingly unfamiliar with the fact that most people are either good at math or good at language, but rarely excel at both.

It also seems like people rarely have dyscalcia AND dyslexia; it's usually one or the other. Especially with autistics, who are more likely to have dyslexia and hypercalculia, or hyerlexia and dyscalculia.


I have both symptoms of Dyscalculia and Dyslexia. I use my phone or computer to help with my spelling, that way I mask my symptoms of Dyslexia to some extent.



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26 Nov 2023, 11:55 am

Number theory I’m fine with, anything in math that is used in the real world, generally fine with, computing mathematics id generally excelled at, everything else has been difficult to grasp right through school being put in the lowest skill sets in school for both math and English. Diagnosed with Dyslexia and Dyscalculia (Or the family of dyslexia disorders at the time many years ago)


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26 Nov 2023, 7:24 pm

I had the same problem. My parents were like "You should give up on being a veterinarian when you grow up becuase you'll NEVER be able to pass the college/university math requirements!" That's when I quit trying at all in school. I was only in the 3rd or 4th grade too. I volunteered for a vet and brought up my situation and and every other vet (and several techs) said "Oh, that's no big deal. Most colleges have a disability department you can go to and they'll get you help. It's not cheating." My brother is a people doctor who found anything academic came easy to him. He was super popular too. A real life "Mary-Sue". He never believed me about my math issue and told me I was being lazy and that people who get accommodations in school are just lazy. I didn't talk to him for over a year...almost two after that. I STILL am angry over it.

Becoming a veterinarian is my special interest. My main one. Special interests are my strongest autistic trait. My mom always said to focus on being a veterinary tech/nurse but that's not my special interest and I'm pretty sure you are required to learn math in tech school too. I think she meant veterinary assistant which a lot of people get confused for techs because in some places they basically are. If my dyscalculia had been diagnosed earlier I would have had a better outcome. Whenever I hear that autistic people are oh so good at math, I want to strangle the person who says it.


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Last edited by MagicMeerkat on 26 Nov 2023, 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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26 Nov 2023, 7:25 pm

That makes sense.



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27 Nov 2023, 8:33 am

MagicMeerkat wrote:
I had the same problem. My parents were like "You should give up on being a veterinarian when you grow up becuase you'll NEVER be able to pass the college/university math requirements!" That's when I quit trying at all in school. I was only in the 3rd or 4th grade too. I volunteered for a vet and brought up my situation and and every other vet (and several techs) said "Oh, that's no big deal. Most colleges have a disability department you can go to and they'll get you help. It's not cheating." My brother is a people doctor who found anything academic came easy to him. He was super popular too. A real life "Mary-Sue". He never believed me about my math issue and told me I was being lazy and that people who get accommodations in school are just lazy. I didn't talk to him for over a year...almost two after that. I STILL am angry over it.

Becoming a veterinarian is my special interest. My main one. Special interests are my strongest autistic trait. My mom always said to focus on being a veterinary tech/nurse but that's not my special interest and I'm pretty sure you are required to learn math in tech school too. I think she meant veterinary assistant which a lot of people get confused for techs because in some places they basically are. If my dyscalculia had been diagnosed earlier I would have had a better outcome. Whenever I hear that autistic people are oh so good at math, I want to strangle the person who says it.


If you were struggling with math in elementary school then science degree college math is going to be a really big hurdle to overcome, even with help from a disability department.

You should probably start figuring out what math you will need and possibly even getting some tutoring beforehand. Math is something that builds on itself. You're never going to pass calculus if you suck at algebra, and you need good math fundamentals to be good at algebra.

It's possible to work with animals at a veterinarian office or wildlife hospital without being a veterinarian. Going all in on one very specific job has a high potential for disappointment, rather than trying to answer the question "what is the best way to work in my field of interest that maximizes my strengths and minimizes my weaknesses?"

For a time my parents wanted me to pursue a degree in engineering despite my dislike of and beginning struggles with math.

I pursued a degree (albeit not my special interest - and not engineering or medicine) where I was repeatedly told being good at math was important. I plowed ahead anyway. Not only was the advanced math beyond me, but the courses specific to the degree did indeed require the kind of thinking that goes with being good at math.



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27 Nov 2023, 9:30 am

I do not understand.

Are you having difficulties with basic maths and it's basic concepts? (i.e. Arithmetics, counting)
Along with everyday practical uses? (i.e. Recognizing numbers, telling time, how much is how much, etc.)

Or are you having difficulties with learning more complex maths? (Algebra, calculus)
Or somehow comprehending certain concepts? (i.e. Bolean logic and the on/off/gates, polynomials by replacing numbers with letters, etc.)


The former is very likely dyscalculia.
The latter is either your personal fit or your education system or both.


I like maths.
But I couldn't comprehend most learning mediums (verbalization and symbols) when it came to advanced maths.

The incomprehension always feels like that frustrating gap; there should be something in between those processes.
Like how 3x3 is actually just 3+3+3, or explained it to me that it's 3 threes instead of just making me memorize the table.

And even so, it will take me days or weeks, and with backtracking in order to comprehend and able to translate it to my own terms correctly.

And whenever I discover something I hadn't understood before hand, and able to rectify that damnable gap...
It gives me joy.


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27 Nov 2023, 10:19 am

Edna3362 wrote:
I do not understand.

Are you having difficulties with basic maths and it's basic concepts? (i.e. Arithmetics, counting)
Along with everyday practical uses? (i.e. Recognizing numbers, telling time, how much is how much, etc.)

Or are you having difficulties with learning more complex maths? (Algebra, calculus)
Or somehow comprehending certain concepts? (i.e. Bolean logic and the on/off/gates, polynomials by replacing numbers with letters, etc.)


The former is very likely dyscalculia.
The latter is either your personal fit or your education system or both.


I like maths.
But I couldn't comprehend most learning mediums (verbalization and symbols) when it came to advanced maths.

The incomprehension always feels like that frustrating gap; there should be something in between those processes.
Like how 3x3 is actually just 3+3+3, or explained it to me that it's 3 threes instead of just making me memorize the table.

And even so, it will take me days or weeks, and with backtracking in order to comprehend and able to translate it to my own terms correctly.

And whenever I discover something I hadn't understood before hand, and able to rectify that damnable gap...
It gives me joy.


I have problems with partly all above.