Guilt problem

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This is about a problem I have which is really limiting my life at the moment. It seems not to have a name, and I've been told by doctors that I do not really suffer from anxiety because I do not get palpititions. But I wonder if anyone else has gone through anything similar and could offer some advice.

It seems to be founded on a combination of Guilt and chronic low self esteem.

When I was younger, I started to create bizarre rules for myself to follow, like I had to sit still and not move for long periods of time, or try not to breath for a long time. I then developed a tic of saying 'sorry' repeatedly for no apparent reason, (no apparent reason to other people - it was always apparent to me). When I played piano I would become very angry with myself if I made a mistake, and make myself start over hundreds and hundreds of times, and hit my hands. I was doing little scratches on my arms with a compass from when I was thirteen, I also started hitting my arms and legs very hard, and banging my head on walls. I did some proper cutting in my late teens, although only really after drink/drug binges. I did not find it that much of a challenge to move away from the cutting, I hated the way it was perceived as attention seeking, but I still hit my arms, now to the extent that it gives me quite bad bruising.

What it is now accompanied by is strange thoughts about people not wanting me to exist. For instance, if I am in the lift and there is another person in the lift, I will start to feel guilty and panic because the other person does not want me there. In restaurants and shops I worry that I am not the sort of customer they want. If I am on the bus and a mother with a child sits near me, I worry that it would be better if I was not there since she wants to be alone with her child. If I go to the doctor, I worry that I am not ill enough and someone else needs the appointment more. etc etc etc.

I used to be pretty social by aspie standards, but I am now finding it very hard to go out. I can hardly speak to my old friends because I feel guilty about enforcing my presence, I can't make new friends because I feel like any positive impression they may initially get of me will be a false one, and they will find this out. I feel guilty about any attraction I feel towards another person, I think that this man will feel sick if he knows this weird girl fancies him. The other day a friend told me that one of their friends liked me - I said I didn't want a girlfriend. In reality I know I am a pain in the arse girlfriend because of my meltdowns and wouldn't want to subject anyone to it.

This is the one problem I have that only gets worse over time, which makes me wonder if it's tied to accumulated life experience. By which I mean that I don't think any one event in particular has caused it. To tie it to any of the following - being bullied at school, parents divorce, breakdowns at work, being raped - I would view as overly simplistic. But I can see that it could be down to their cumulative effect.

I have a shrink at the moment, so I have the opportunity to discuss these things, but I am sceptical about how much delving back into all of them could really help. I am also cynical about CBT because I can already tell myself these thoughts are illogical but this strangely doesn't seem to have any effect.

Basically I don't know what to do. Anyone?

Well I did CBT for a different problem, social anxiety (I believe this now to be a symptom of my underlying AS). I had the same cynicism with regard to CBT that you do. My main problem was that I believed people were thinking negatively of me to a greater extent than they were, to put it bluntly paranoia. However, I couldn't get my head around the idea that I'd have to 'pretend' that these people weren't actually thinking negatively of me. I KNEW that they were. I also knew that I while I was oversensitive I wasn't imagining it.

The key for CBT working was not only to tell myself that these thoughts were illogical and counteract them with equally logical alternatives but to ignore them and refocus my attention. What good did focusing on the negative emotions and thoughts do for me? So why should I entertain them? CBT for me was about refocusing what I thought about. It wasn't the cure in my case but it was certainly helpful. It'd work better if I remember to use it more often that's for sure!

Hope some of that made sense anyway.

Oh, that makes perfect sense. Paranoia forms a huge part of my problem too, and when I'm at my worst I feel very certain of those thoughts, to the point where I cannot percieve that they are paranoid, and view it as a cop-out or being too easy on myself to see it that way. Sometimes I would react very strongly if it was suggested I was being paranoid, and become very distressed, because I thought i ought to be angry with myself and people weren't allowing me to be.

Distracting myself is already part of the solution I have - stay in and write and don't think about it. I would find it much harder to ignore the thoughts if I went out.

You Doctor isn’t with you 24/7 to measure you heart and besides heart rate/rhythm is only one sign of anxiety, however fundamental it might be normally. One reason why he might of said this if somebody has experienced something traumatic, it can be better not to make them revisit it rather that what they though in previous knowledge. In other words dwelling on bad things may make you worse. That is good thinking and is backed by recent evidence. However he might be applying it somewhat crudely. You are aware of this guilt and it is counter productive to let I build up inside of you with no outlet. Bare with me on this…

I'm pretty certain this is social phobia/anxiety. Not all of what you said, of course, and it will likely relate to your Asperger's in some form. Anxiety sort of merges into different areas seamlessly it isn't rigid, so 'social phobia' is just a buzzword for multiple causes for a similar problem. Social phobia can be specific or generalised. It can be depression led, or can be a series of events that led to social phobia and then depression, whatever. One friend was almost entirely depression led when she cleared up her depression, she was a completely different person. Or can be like me without clinical depression, probably due to with not knowing how to relate to people and being bullied because of it. My other friend said he recently realize it was partly related to his fear of being sick. It doesn't actually matter what started it. Believe it or not you don’t need to know for sure, only if that something is ongoing. I can’t because of my memory. What caused it is a catalyst. Today is a different story.

I actually had a similar guilt, but to almost bizarre levels. Like when I when I was on a bus and the driver was radioed about some youth that had been causing trouble. I believed they would think it was me, and it was almost as if I did think it was me. It felt like I was guilty of those things. Also going though customs, I nearly always felt I had something to hide and I was a criminal. I have the remnants of it, like I could feel that way every time I go up to buy a drink etc. But All the really life evidence helps me and I take corrective measures.

Not wanting to breathe, I did that exactly how you describe it. I freaked out at a train station like that. You don't necessarily have to have panic attack that is hyperventilating or have panic attacks at all.

You don't have to do the CBT right now. Some people don't do formal CBT but in effect are doing it. It can pretty much encompass anything that may work for you practically. The basic principle is working on your negative thought and fundamental beliefs while gradually changing you behavior. Emphasis on gradual. How much you deal with on the cognitive side and how much on the behavioural side is an individual thing.

You do need clearly defined problems to start and a little motivation.

It isn't just about knowing it is irrational. In a way it is rational, just not particularly helpful or nice. You are anxious therefore you are responding accordingly. It is actually more like stuff about figuring out what you believe about yourself and other people/things, which leads you to believe that the person doesn't want you to stand in the elevator with you, etc, etc.

I.e. 'I am perceived as poor human material'.

That is a real one of mine that apparently I said when I was 11-12. Those are fundamental beliefs. Like being fundamentalist terrorist on yourself The techniques that you can challenge such beliefs is quite varied. I found that bit hard (but not impossible) because I didn't really have many beliefs in words. I wonder if people on the spectrum have more inherent/primal anxiety that isn't in words. You might think to yourself that you don't really want to do the cognitive side at all, just bring on the behaviour quickstep. In actuall fact the cognitive side is one of the things you can start with at home with a sheet of paper. You don't have to go out to start.

It is also about knowing it is a cycle that keeps it going and you aim is to break one chain in the cycle at least.

I think I said enough about it already, I don't want to go on about if you don't feel ready. Going to a shrink is a good idea even if their main thing is not CBT. It might help you figure things out that might be useful later in CBT. Especially if you are as cloudy about it as I was. I though the Gillian Butler book was helpful, if not just to get the general principle of CBT with relation to social phobia. She doesn’t use some bizarre analogies like other do and is good with recognising how everybody is different.

Feel free to ask me anything if you have any questions.

You sound kindof like me. I always feel guilty for disturbing my friend when she is helping me, because I am having a meltdown.

The thing about me and social anxiety is that I did acting in my teens, I can do public speaking, no problem. But then, part of me too thinks that it is social anxiety...

Considering your post, I think what i need to do is write all my thoughts down on paper, what are all the implicit assumptions underlying my thoughts. I do think that would help.

My shrink's 'thing' is getting me diagnosed, which is great! I was worried that would never happen. My current worry is that I'll get the diagnosis and promptly get chucked out of her surgery!

Just hancuff yourself to the desk. Problem solved.

Believe me social anxiety can be quite specific situations. I made up/wrote skits and performed in them. I was in Fiddler on the Roof.

Besides you are talking about school, this is now.

Yes I think it would help. Not immediately there are stages after that, but that is one of the most important things. I wouldn't worry about what you do with them for the moment

have had something like this, though maybe to a different degree. Every time a cop car passes, I expect the lights to come on and them pull me over. I don't like talking to the police, because every time I do my car insurance goes up...

Don't know if this is a help or a hindrance, but unless someone knows you, they mainly don't care, one way or another. Some things like elevators, everyone's uncomfortable in one because it's a small space. Has nothing to do with you personally. I usually give anyone who looks at me the curt nod (a male thing, may not work for women..., a vague smile, and maybe banal conversation.. working on the last...

if you're uncomfortable about a woman and her child, you can always compliment the woman on her child. While this is intensely cynical, you can hardly go wrong complimenting a mother on her offspring... I can verify from experience that there's nothing that will bring more strangers around than a baby, or toddler. As they get older, well, that's another story.

Friends and potential boyfriends are something you can probably work on on your own, since it's hard to accurately help from here.. Your old friends, if they are friends, already support you, and new friends you can make or not as you choose. Guys (of a certain age) can also be forgiving, as long as you ease them into the situation, and don't spring everything on them at once. And if they can't handle it, they're like buses; another one always comes along.

It sounds a little like me but much more extreme.

I don't know how to fix it, so can't offer you any advice.

All I can say is that in the short time I've been here, I've read a lot of your posts. I think you're very wanted. You're always pleasant and contribute well and intelligently to discussions and you seem like a really, really nice person.

it sounds like me in a lot of ways. I got on a seritonin and noroepinephrine re uptake inhibitor (sorry I cant spell well). It has really helped. You seem to have symptoms of social anxiety disorde and depression. maybe even PTSD from all the bad things that have happened to you recently. See if you doctor can prescribe you something to help balance your brian chemicals untl they can balance them selfs. You sually dont need to be on the pills for too long amount of time.

I am trying really hard to fix my low mood with exercise and diet. I am very wary of the pills. The same thing does not work for everyone and I worry about the possibility of being given something that actually made me feel worse, (as has happened to several people I know). Also, I would find it socially isolating, especially if I was disalowed from drinking. I don't think I could face going out and sidestepping the topic all evening for my friends who were only keep their depressed mate company out of pity.

Update - I think I am going downhill. I have cried all of the last three days about total rubbish that has no basis in reality. Today I think have been upset about nuclear power and the conservatives possibly getting elected. I felt like I wanted to go on a walk deep into the woods and find a place to hide and stay there. Then I had a daydream about my funeral. (I'm not really thinking of killing myself, was just a weird daydream) Fun times.

Sorry to hear this.

There is the old adage that it can get worse before it get better. Maybe that is meaningless bull but sometimes it is about right.

I do get anxious thought about scenarios that are totally random even as different people. I feel emotions in them them too. Not all of them are bad but can be distracting.

I don't know if that is my general anxiety or pure O or what. A type of CBT called Dialectical Behavior Therapy is supposed to help with more random a difficult to pin down thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectica ... al_therapy

I did find Mindfulness meditation to be helpful. I was cynical about anything like that. Anyway I'm not great at it myself, which is why I want to go back to my shrink to help deal with some of this stress so you are not alone.

I took pill for anxiety. I would only consider doing it again as a last resort. That is because I found CBT more useful and the pills did change who I was. I was almost more anxious inside. Other people it has helped.

My friend takes st John Wort rather than prescription medicine. She said it cleared up her depression and SA.

I agree.
You mention public speaking - from what I've read, it's possible to have social anxiety for some types of situations but not others - for example, to be ok with public speaking, but have strong social anxiety in other areas. i can manage public speaking, but other social things are very paralysing for me.

Sarah,

Sorry to hear you're going downhill.

I'm glad to hear that you're avoiding drugs as much as possible. Most drugs cover up the real problems... stop taking the drugs and the problems come back. (and that's if the work at all and don't give you awful side-effects).

Of course, if the situation is life-threatening, seek professional help and particularly if it's a matter of survival, take the drugs. The world needs you.

It's not uncommon to worry about problems like Nuclear Power. Unfortunately people like you and I will never wield enough power to stop it and even if it was discontinued, there's no guarantee that an alternative might not be even more dangerous - (eg: hydrogen fusion instead).

Remember the prayer that starts off asking for help to "accept the things you cannot change" - nuclear power is a good example.

Are you a member of a local group that does things for the environment, plants trees etc? That might give you some feelings of satisfaction which could counter the depression.

you're all incredibly sweet.
I have felt worse than this and every time I have come back round without taking anything for it. So I'm sure I will this time.

I think what I need to start doing again is carrying around a good book. Or even a crap book. That I can start reading to drown out any thoughts I don't want. My problem is traditionally that I feel OK all the time I'm at work, then I literally walk out and start crying because my mind isn't occupied anymore.

I can sort this I'm sure.

I have experienced similar things, well I still do, but I don't think about it a lot because I'm so used to it. It's more when something bad happens for example, that these bad thoughts surface. Well, in short I've always felt that I exist less, on a lower level, than everyone else. I know I was certain of this when I was 5. I'd look at all the other children and wonder why this was so and if they knew and if so if they knew why. I'd wonder what made them certain that they had the right to live and make noise and take up place when I wasn't.

I've always experienced myself as being less visible, like if you walk in the street I'd be slightly more transparent somehow. This fundamental certainty that I don't have the same right to live, that I should somehow apologize to someone for existing, has made me a rather passive person. I don't think others can pick up on this, although I spend most of my time alone I'm quite popular, I think most would describe me as quite well adjusted and confident, maybe a little weird. But I think part of being able to make that impression is that I try hard to not disturb others. I don't want to dissapoint them, to let them see the "true" me. I don't make phone calls, I don't apply for jobs, I don't walk into shops, I don't ask questions, I don't initiate things unless I feel truly welcome to do so. I'm always scared someone will find out. It's like playing a game and I congratulate myself when I've been successful.

When it gets worse or I forget to control my thoughts I don't like looking at people because I feel my looks make them dirty, that I should feel ashamed for looking at them. The reason why they don't react on this is in my thinking is that they are too polite to do so. They realize I can't help being lesser. My first instinctive thought when I meet people is that I hope they won't hate me and I'm always releived when they don't. It's like getting a little more free time before the storm comes.

Sometimes I wonder if I misunderstood something at an early age when I was too little to realize complicated situations around me but still could pick up on them, but I don't know. As I said I rarely think of this. It's like me and the thoughts co-exist on different levels and only rarely meet. I've never told anyone before. But I hope me telling you about this might somehow be of some help. I try not to think of them because I realize how much they hurt me. Also it makes me bored to be so self indulged. I wish for an extroverted life "like everyone else" even though I realize that I because of this and other things will always to a certain extent fake it. But faking it and monitoring myself enables me to focus on the things that are important to me and that make me happy. I also think battling with this sort of thing contributes to my creative life and makes me more interesting and so rewarding to others.