AS/NLD versus Right Hemisphere Syndrome/Brain Injury

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LostInSpace
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08 Feb 2009, 10:13 am

Warning: This post is somewhat rambling, being a collection of observations and musings of mine over how AS/NLD relate to frank brain injury.

As some people on here might know, I recently got my first job as a speech pathologist in a rehab hospital. My caseload includes people with all sorts of problems, from Parkinson's Disease, to strokes, to brain injury, to dementia, etc.

I've read in the past how similar some of the symptoms of Right Hemisphere Syndrome (caused by damage to the right hemisphere, such as a stroke or traumatic injury) can be to NLD, and also AS. After all, NLD is often considered a "right hemisphere disorder," and sometimes AS has been described in the same terms. This topic has been discussed on this board before, and since I have a few patients right now with right hemisphere damage (3 strokes, 1 traumatic brain injury), I thought some people here might be interested in my observations in the similarities and differences between NLD and AS as proposed developmental "right hemisphere disorders" and right hemisphere syndrome caused by brain injury (being careful not to provide any identifying information about these patients of course). I have NLD by the way (dx'ed 2 years ago), but not AS.

One difference of course is that patients with Right Hemisphere Syndrome (RHS) can have severe left neglect (ignoring the left side of their body as if it weren't there) and also left-sided hemiparesis/hemiplegia (weakness/paralysis on the left). NLDers don't tend to have the severe manifestations of neglect and hemiparesis, however some have problems with left side inattention and weakness (not sure about AS). I actually myself have a weak left grip (10th percentile in my left, versus 65th percentile in my right), and visual inattention which is worse on my left side.

One of the major symptoms of RHS is a deficit in pragmatics- one of my stroke patients who has classic RHS makes no eye contact at all, he speaks in a monotone, and his affect is flat. People with NLD, and especially those with AS, often have difficulties in these same areas (although some Aspies actually have voices which are over-inflected).

None of my right hemisphere stroke patients have any difficulty with impulsivity however, which can be an issue with AS/NLD/ADHD, although they definitely do have problems with executive functioning. They also don't seem to have issues carrying on two-way conversations, the way Aspies and some NLDers do. Now, take this with a grain of salt because one thing I've found in my month of work so far is that I have problems spotting this kind of difficulty (gee, wonder why). The other therapists tend to rate patients' "social interaction" scores lower than I do, and a couple of times have been shocked that I thought a patient was functioning normally when apparently their social skills were very inappropriate. Yeah, it's something for me to work on.

My right-sided traumatic brain injury (TBI) patient on the other hand *definitely* has communication problems, specifically with confusion and confabulation and "cocktail party speech". For anyone who doesn't know what confabulation is, basically it means that your brain makes things up. I say "your brain," because it is not conscious, and the person actually believes these falsehoods are true. For instance, if I asked a brain injury patient what he has done that day, and he said, "I drove to the theater to see a play," that would be confabulation. My TBI patient has this in spades. He also has "cocktail party speech," which is rambling, tangential, and includes a lot of talking without saying anything (like smalltalk at a party). NLDers and Aspies are both frequently described as having cocktail party speech. His speech is also highly formal and often uses fairly "advanced words" that most people don't commonly use in speech- that may be more related to him as person than his brain damage however, as I doubt average joes who sustain brain injuries suddenly start talking like university professors- I'm not sure what he was like premorbidly though or what his career was. He doesn't always use these words correctly though, and his speech content is fairly empty (again, NLD speech is often described this way).

Here is an example with my TBI patient. We were working on a short-term memory exercise, and I read off four words ("elephant," "stone," "squirrel", and "sofa"), and then asked him which were the animals. His response (paraphrased):

Patient X: "Well, I suppose that you said something about a small animal, a small animal packed in, one which could fit in a pack. An animal, which is a pack..."

Me: "Do you mean a pachyderm?" (in case you don't know, elephants are pachyderms- since his speech does tend to be formal and pedantic I thought he might have thought elephant= pachyderm, and gotten stuck on that)

Patient X: No, no, a pack. An animal which can be packed, a small animal, perhaps one which can fit into a backpack...."

[around here I repeated both the instructions and the words, which he took no notice of, continuing on in the same vein, so I decided to be more direct]

Me: One of the words was "elephant." Elephants are pachyderms, so I thought that might be what you meant."

Patient: (angrily) Yes, I KNOW that elephants are pachyderms. I know what an elephant is. That is not what I meant...." etc etc

I wasn't able to make myself understood, so we ended up switching activities to one more appropriate (his level of confusion varies depending on fatigue, and this was near the end of the session), but anyway, I hope you see what I mean about lots of talking without much content. Also he exhibits major perserveration, which should be obvious from this short exchange. Most of my patients have problems with perseveration though, especially when they are tired.

One last thing about right hemisphere damage is that it causes "anosognosia," which means that patients are unaware of their deficits. For instance, I have a right hemisphere stroke patient with severe left neglect and visual processing problems, in addition to having no use of his left arm or leg, who insists that if staff would let him, that he could drive home right away and go back to work as a wood-chipper. I know that some auties/Aspies are not aware of their difficulties with communication, but I don't think it works the same way.

Anyway, basically the purpose of this post was to discuss some AS/NLD-like characteristics that I've seen in patients with right hemisphere damage. Since I am aware that both AS and NLD are thought to be related to abnormalities in the RH, I find my RHS patients very interesting to work with. I will say however that although a list of symptoms of AS and RHS might look similar (minus the special interests, stimming and routines- it's mostly the communication style which is similar), I get no sense of "Aspieness" from these patients. I'm in no way an expert, but I knew several dx'ed Aspies in college (and some others I suspected were Aspies), and I also worked in a school for kids with autism for 5 months, and there's an "air" of Aspieness/autism. It's a qualitative difference in interaction. It's nothing I would be able to quantify, but anyway, none of my patients have it. It's just that right hemisphere damage appears to cause some problems with communication (especially nonverbal) and also some cognitive deficits which seem similar to the communication styles and deficits of some people with AS and NLD.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with this post by the way- I realize some people think of Aspies as having neurological differences only, and not deficits, and I realize that I didn't address any of the strengths/advantages of AS/NLD, though certainly a number exist. Speaking from the stand-point of NLD though, I *definitely* have some significant deficits in nonverbal communication and also some processing problems (although I have typical NLD strengths as well), so again, no offense meant.


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whitetiger
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08 Feb 2009, 10:35 am

I've researched NLD intensively, as I have a bad case of it. My neuropsychiatrist also refers to it as "right hemisphere dysfunction" even though I've never had a TBI or stroke.

http://www.nld-bprourke.ca/

Byron Rourke (founder of the NLD concept) has a web-site (above) that can offer even more clarification about how physical causes (and not just autism spectrum problems) can cause NLD or right hemisphere dysfunction.



blossoms
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08 Feb 2009, 10:36 am

Thanks so much lostinspace for posting this, it's fascinating...you should keep a diary or blog for your work. :)

God, reading these forums can be so enriching...



LostInSpace
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08 Feb 2009, 10:47 am

whitetiger wrote:
I've researched NLD intensively, as I have a bad case of it. My neuropsychiatrist also refers to it as "right hemisphere dysfunction" even though I've never had a TBI or stroke.

http://www.nld-bprourke.ca/

Byron Rourke (founder of the NLD concept) has a web-site (above) that can offer even more clarification about how physical causes (and not just autism spectrum problems) can cause NLD or right hemisphere dysfunction.


Thanks for the link, whitetiger. Yeah, I've read some of Rourke's stuff, including his papers which link NLD-like symptoms with some genetic syndromes which cause clear white matter damage (like leukodystrophy). Interesting stuff. And yes, I definitely do think of NLD as a right hemisphere problem primarily.


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LostInSpace
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08 Feb 2009, 10:48 am

blossoms wrote:
Thanks so much lostinspace for posting this, it's fascinating...you should keep a diary or blog for your work. :)

God, reading these forums can be so enriching...


You're welcome, blossoms. I'm glad you enjoyed it (I was half-afraid no one would read it because of the length, actually). That is an interesting idea about keeping a blog, hmm...


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AnnaLemma
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08 Feb 2009, 12:03 pm

This is extremely interesting! I was rather aspie-like as a kid, apparently developed compensations in my teens, had a brain aneurysm and basilar-vertebral stroke at 40, and have been reverting to being noticeably aspie-like again. My stroke, however, was on the left side of my brain. I find your observations fascinating, as I have had an interest in this area since my medical adventure and there didn't seem to be a whole lot of information that I could find.


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LostInSpace
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08 Feb 2009, 12:17 pm

AnnaLemma wrote:
This is extremely interesting! I was rather aspie-like as a kid, apparently developed compensations in my teens, had a brain aneurysm and basilar-vertebral stroke at 40, and have been reverting to being noticeably aspie-like again. My stroke, however, was on the left side of my brain. I find your observations fascinating, as I have had an interest in this area since my medical adventure and there didn't seem to be a whole lot of information that I could find.


I'm sorry to hear that you had a stroke. I would imagine that having a left hemisphere stroke in a person who mainly uses left hemisphere abilities to compensate for AS would definitely have an impact on your ability to "pass". Aspies/NLDers tend to use their strengths in language and reasoning to develop explicit social "rules" for themselves, to talk themselves through difficult or confusing situations, and also to compensate for things like visual processing and executive functioning deficits. Besides language, a left hemisphere stroke can also impact things like memory, especially working and short term memory, and also attention and concentration, which could also make compensating more difficult. Good luck with your continuing recovery.


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08 Feb 2009, 12:56 pm

That was interesting. I did some reading a while back on communication disorders (aphasia, speech apraxia) and one book had a section on rh damage for comparison. I remember thinking the descriptions for both left and right hemisphere damage could look superficially like autism in some ways, but we aren't consistently one way or the other, and we're each different in the pattern of deficits/strengths between the hemispheres, so it's not the same thing.



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08 Feb 2009, 1:33 pm

LostInSpace wrote:
Aspies/NLDers tend to use their strengths in language and reasoning to develop explicit social "rules" for themselves, to talk themselves through difficult or confusing situations, and also to compensate for things like visual processing and executive functioning deficits. Besides language, a left hemisphere stroke can also impact things like memory, especially working and short term memory, and also attention and concentration, which could also make compensating more difficult.


Visually processing fast-moving things (eg some sports video, some movie scenes) is now challenging and others like video games and casino interiors are impossible without total overload. This seems to have re-emerged post-aneurysm. I don't seem to have any impairment of language/speech (mine) or memory generally, compared to pre-aneurysm. I think I sometimes struggle to make sense of other people's speech, especially if they speak very slowly. I truly lose my place or lose interest. I also learned to tolerate talking on the phone as a teen, but I am reverting to avoiding it when possible. Probably the total dependence on speech-processing. Other than that, I personally can't identify what it is that makes me less able to "pass" than I did pre-aneurysm. Although perhaps my husband could offer some more objective observations. Thanks for the insights!


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08 Feb 2009, 1:41 pm

From what I've read, I gather that AS is a brain difference whereas NLD is a progressive brain disease.


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stanw
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08 Feb 2009, 4:20 pm

This is a really basic question, and may, in any other forum, be perceived as obstinate or whatever. Somebody - I thought it was in this thread but I'm afraid I may have inadvertantly gotten to the "new post" option instead of "reply" as the subject heading was blank.

Anyway, someone was describing some idiosyncratic (ha! significant and important!) differences between and among T.B.I., Asperger's, N(V)LD, and Executive Dysfunction.

It was pointed out that some folks with NLD (and Aspergers, I think) have trouble with "two way conversations". Is this opposed to conversations with 3 or more participants? I would think that the multi-tasking demand of the latter would be much harder and more stressful than a simple reciprocal chit chat (at least, the multi-tasking totally fries and frustrates me!).

Oh - I just registered, and I *begrudgingly* indicated that I have "another spectrum disorder". NLD is NOT on the spectrum! No, I'm not trying to say one is better or worse or more stigmatic than the other, but - and I'm sure many or most of you can identify with this - I am just being very literal.

Anyway, just wanted to introduce myself, as I found this site/forum as a result of an "NLD" Google alert. Thanks.

-stan shura



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08 Feb 2009, 6:29 pm

Go to Ted.com and look up the talk "My stroke of insight."

It's about a neuroscientist who realizes she's having a stroke and saves her own life. it's about 20 min.


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08 Feb 2009, 7:03 pm

stanw wrote:
It was pointed out that some folks with NLD (and Aspergers, I think) have trouble with "two way conversations". Is this opposed to conversations with 3 or more participants?
No, it is opposed to being non-communicative, or 'talking at' people, or attempting two-way conversation, but failing as a result of insufficient reciprocity (the "give and take" of 2+ way conversation).

Quote:
Oh - I just registered, and I *begrudgingly* indicated that I have "another spectrum disorder". NLD is NOT on the spectrum! No, I'm not trying to say one is better or worse or more stigmatic than the other, but - and I'm sure many or most of you can identify with this - I am just being very literal.

That depends who is doing the classifying, because there are many professionals who do consider it a spectrum condition, while many others believe it is a related but separate condition.


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