Prenatal Testing For Autism (Like Jewish & Hitler?)
12 Dec 2010, 11:04 pm
1. Autism is a recognized developmental disorder. Jewishness is not.
2. IF such a test can ever be devised, and this is questionable, it would have to be because a genetic cause for the disorder had been conclusively found. The Nazis decided who was Jewish largely based on parentage and who was opposed to their total control of the German state. Their "science" was propaganda and rationalization after the fact.
3. The existence of such a test need not necessarily mean mass abortions. People might be able to better prepare for a special needs child, and/or it might be possible in the distant future to correct the disorder. Now, if the government started to force people to have abortions of their autistic babies, THAT would be worthy of comparison with the Nazis.
4. As of this moment, it is a woman's right to choose to have an abortion for any reason, regardless of whatever moral conclusions other persons may make about that choice. Women choose to have abortions of normal babies simply because they don't want any child. If we're trying to insinuate that a woman shouldn't be able to abort an autistic child, we must reopen the entire issue of abortion rights. If we are saying that a person does not have the right to make that choice, who does? If some reasons are OK for abortions, who gets to decide what those reasons are? Again, if the government steps in and starts forcing people to have abortions, that is very different than if people choose to make that decision themselves.
5. The Nazis were actually involved in the massive killing of many millions of living people, not abortions. Although some say it is no different because a fetus is a person, others draw the line at different places. Catholics, for example, expand the logic to oppose all forms of birth control in that we are preventing "potential" person from being born, taking away lives that might have been. Some say life begins at conception, others at birth, others when a child is able to live independent of the mother. Who is to decide where to draw the line for everyone, when the issue is one of values, not facts?
I see no logical reason why people are so upset over this issue. Ultimately, unless the government starts to mandate abortions of "defective" babies, and I see no evidence our government would consider or desire this, what impact does this have on any individual other than the parent? Who is going to have to raise the difficult child? Not you, not me, and not the government. It's easy to say "well you should do this because it's just the right thing" when you don't have to put in the actual work.
In my opinion, it is better to let people make their own choices. Some will make choices you like, others will not. I like this better than the alternative of setting the government up as the absolute unquestionable arbiter of truth and justice in this world. Governments can be manipulated to serve terrible ends (witness the Nazis). The kind of power you would have to give government in order to stop people from making abortions you don't like, would also give them the power to decide the opposite, that they should do the abortions. It is impossible to separate the two. Either the government controls reproductive rights, or the individual does. You may not like it that some people, out of laziness or vanity or misguided righteousness or whatever other motivation, decide to test their babies for autism and use that result to decide to keep or not to keep, but they will, and moreover, they'll do it whether it's legal or not.
You said it better than I ever could. Someone making a choice not to have a child with autism is not the same as what the Nazis were doing.
Now if autistic people and people who have autistic children were being sterilized and/or killed, pregnant women who already have autistic children were being forced to abort their fetuses, and more than 6 million people (and no, fetuses do not count as people, as they are not viable outside the womb at the time when most abortions are performed) were killed in the process, then the Nazi comparison might be sort of apt.
And can you please stop posting Youtube videos in response to every post? It's annoying and it slows down people's browsers.
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12 Dec 2010, 11:14 pm
"And can you please stop posting Youtube videos in response to every post? It's annoying and it slows down people's browsers."
In this post sure. In others maybe because others enjoy it however not to many on the same post page then. It allows for creativity and is a clear option of the planet website. Also some of the videos were required for the topic. But Patton cannot be excluded it just would not be right as it is a perfect fit for the topic.
The hush little baby song I'd expect some protest to but when my baby was to be born I watched that one over and over again. She manifest hand flapping and other concerns but intensive early intervention has been applied. Peek-a-boo... I did that with her today. I will post a photo soon.
12 Dec 2010, 11:35 pm
In this post sure. In others maybe because others enjoy it however not to many on the same post page then. It allows for creativity and is a clear option of the planet website. Also some of the videos were required for the topic. But Patton cannot be excluded it just would not be right as it is a perfect fit for the topic.
The hush little baby song I'd expect some protest to but when my baby was to be born I watched that one over and over again. She manifest hand flapping and other concerns but intensive early intervention has been applied. Peek-a-boo... I did that with her today. I will post a photo soon.
Thanks. I also noticed a slowdown in my browser; it got to the point where my browser became non-responsive, and lost a post. I think others will appreciate this, as well.
12 Dec 2010, 11:39 pm
Actually mine does that on this site all the time and I have a 8mb per second connection. The server is getting overloaded but the videos are separate and hosted elsewhere. I really think W.P needs a dedicated server if it doesn't have one already but that costs some money. The videos don't download unless you click on them so the load is not substantial.
14 Dec 2010, 7:40 am
It's not the server that's the problem. Youtube tends to slow down browsers.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFKSR7U8vPM&feature=related[/youtube]
That's not really a fair comparison. In the US, Canada, and UK (where most posters are from), you can choose whether or not to abort a disabled fetus.
_________________
I don't post here anymore. If you want to talk to me, go to the WP Facebook group or my Last.fm account.
14 Dec 2010, 8:08 pm
This issue seems to be about 50-50. I find it a fascinating political dynamic and relates to mainstream politics not so very obviously though. I cannot resolve the issue but I can make recommendations. This issue is indeed in the polar extremes a point of extreme conflict. A resolution by intellectuals might be rationalized but because Hitler was so bad himself the whole Hitler connotation is akin to manifesting the devil or perceived great bad itself.
The social rule of if not associating with Hitler comparisons in political opposition does not discredit arguments necessarily all the time on issues generically. Moreover the ideas of Hitlers while not manifesting entirely similarly in present day might be compared but is not a clone per say of other realities. This issue is a social psychological, personal emotional and socio-political drain and or enlightenment of perceptions. The whole Hitler archetype and branching sociopath-ism is so extraordinarily strong that in the sublime socio-politically it has great influence and in ways very complex and distorting whether for the good or for the bad and or a combination thereof depending on views and rationality.
If the Lord of the Rings movie might be compared to this topic the Hitler ring is dangerious to avoid and not avoid.
I hope people emotionally can find wellness of and relating to this topic which has been growing in manifestation in the autism community.
Nathan Young
14 Dec 2010, 8:50 pm
The social rule of if not associating with Hitler comparisons in political opposition does not discredit arguments necessarily all the time on issues generically. Moreover the ideas of Hitlers while not manifesting entirely similarly in present day might be compared but is not a clone per say of other realities. This issue is a social psychological, personal emotional and socio-political drain and or enlightenment of perceptions. The whole Hitler archetype and branching sociopath-ism is so extraordinarily strong that in the sublime socio-politically it has great influence and in ways very complex and distorting whether for the good or for the bad and or a combination thereof depending on views and rationality.
If the Lord of the Rings movie might be compared to this topic the Hitler ring is dangerious to avoid and not avoid.
I hope people emotionally can find wellness of and relating to this topic which has been growing in manifestation in the autism community.
Nathan Young
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
The problem people have with Hitler/Nazi comparisons is that they're thrown around too much, and it trivializes one of the worst atrocities in human history.
_________________
I don't post here anymore. If you want to talk to me, go to the WP Facebook group or my Last.fm account.
14 Dec 2010, 8:59 pm
Yep. The topic despite my being keen on figuring out the inter-workings of thoughts and so on as an avid interest that just comes to me in analytical models kind of like how Temple Grandin understands behavior of cattle in imagery and scenes in her mind as if a CAD program and is to complex even for me. It took me a long time to find words to describe how I understand things. Maybe it's my personal bias of having autism but I for the most part don't take it personally by pure measure of analysis and might be impossible for me to. Brain is kind of feeling numb and overloaded from trying to rationalize it.
The topic is not making me upset by my having autism I don't think but if I could I'd puke because of the mental tiredness of trying to find ways for people to get along. My conclusion is both sides are politically compromised and autism awareness and developmental disability awareness for those that are living in context to inclusion need to be far away politically from any group, entity and or individual involved in these relating politics. Just is an instinctual judgement on my part.
17 Jan 2015, 7:41 pm
Is that irony or what? 'avoid genetic harm to their offspring' - by KILLING them. Too expensive to live. Their lives will COST TOO MUCH. What exactly is a human life worth these days?
So yes, I think prenatal testing will be open season on autistic babies. They won't be able to kill 'em fast enough. So one day they can look around and say "See, no more autistic people! Hooray, we CURED autism!"
EXACTLY. What is a human life worth these days? Apparently not much, if it's an autistic life or otherwise inconvenient for the mother. Since when should convenience outweigh the right to live--which, by the way, is the very first right mentioned in the Declaration of Independence? We should have our natural right to life because we are human. If we neurodiverse individuals lack the right to life, then the whole neurodiversity movement is meaningless. And it's time for society to get used to the fact that we're all human and don't deserve to be killed just because we're costly or inconvenient for others.
18 Jan 2015, 6:39 pm
18 Jan 2015, 6:42 pm
Is that irony or what? 'avoid genetic harm to their offspring' - by KILLING them. Too expensive to live. Their lives will COST TOO MUCH. What exactly is a human life worth these days?
So yes, I think prenatal testing will be open season on autistic babies. They won't be able to kill 'em fast enough. So one day they can look around and say "See, no more autistic people! Hooray, we CURED autism!"
EXACTLY. What is a human life worth these days? Apparently not much, if it's an autistic life or otherwise inconvenient for the mother. Since when should convenience outweigh the right to live--which, by the way, is the very first right mentioned in the Declaration of Independence? We should have our natural right to life because we are human. If we neurodiverse individuals lack the right to life, then the whole neurodiversity movement is meaningless. And it's time for society to get used to the fact that we're all human and don't deserve to be killed just because we're costly or inconvenient for others.
2010??
ARE YOU f*****g KIDDING ME.
You necro'd a thread over 4 f*****g years old!
MODS! DO YOUR JOB!
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