Asperger's and Being Considered "Disabled"

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Abstract reasoning is measured by non-verbal tests of intelligence such as the raven matrices test, per the post I just made.

There are no decisions in life that are not influenced by emotion; human beings cannot separate their limbic system, which produces emotions before human beings are even consciously aware of them in the decision making process, unless they have traumatic brain damage or congenital structural anomaly in brain structure, which is not evident in MRI's in the majority of individuals tested wtih Autism Spectrum Disorders.

Individuals with Autism Spectrum disorders are evidenced as have problems processing and understanding emotion, but that's not a strength for verbal reasoning in social communication, it is part of what makes reasoning in social communication disabling for some individuals with autism spectrum disorders.

Having problems processing and understanding emotion is not a factor that enhances logical thought; difficulties in understanding emotion does not equal a more logical person. Those that understand their emotions are more likely to make logical decisions in every arena of life, because emotions are evidenced as accounting for up to 90% of the decisions human beings make in life.

Some individuals with autism disorder measure poorly on tests of reasoning provided by standard tests of intelligence, that measure verbal reasoning. Individuals with Aspergers are measured as doing significantly better.

However, as per the last post, there is actually one study that shows that Adults with autism disorder actually score slightly higher than Adults without autism disorder on raven matrices tests of abstract reasoning.

Adults with Aspergers syndrome are evidenced by the same researcher not to score higher than non-aspergers syndrome adults in this area of logic, however they still are evidenced as scoring slightly higher on raven matrices tests than they do on standard IQ tests that measure reasoning in full scale measures of intelligence.

Individuals with Autism Spectrum disorders often have problems understanding abstract terms in language as well as figurative language, however that is a measure of verbal reasoning per understanding abstract terms in language and figurative language, not abstract reasoning per non-verbal measures of reasoning, such as the raven matrices tests that measure non-verbal abstract reasoning, that individuals with autism spectrum disorder are studied as excelling in.

It is a bit confusing but to summarize there are measures of abstract reasoning that do not require verbal tests of reasoning. Individuals with Autism Disorder tend to do much better on the abstract reasoning tests that are not associated with verbal measures of reasoning, but individuals with Aspergers are evidenced as doing better, overall, than those with autism disorder on standard tests of intelligence that measure verbal reasoning. And finally, individuals with Aspergers are measured as doing slightly better on raven matrices tests of non-verbal abstract reasoning, than standard intelligence testing that measures full scale intelligence, which includes verbal reasoniong.

On balance, per everyday life, problems in reaching logical conclusions in social communication are evidenced as much more disabling in every day life functioning, than the areas of strength evidenced in testing non-verbal measures of abstract reasoning.

Problems with emotional processing are suggested to play a role in the impairments in social communication evidenced in individuals with autism spectrum disorders, that in part, make the symptoms of the disorders disabling, per functioning in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_in_autism#Intelligence



Note the study referenced above was the older study limited to autism disorder and abstract reasoning. The newer study associated with Aspergers Syndrome was provided in my earlier post.

Epic... You don't think I know what evidence means in science? I'm going to give it one last shot, try not to fail so miserably this last time. Atleast I hope that any possible reader understands why the stuff you're providing would be better off in a garden than on a table of debate.
Again:
1. Controled situation.
2. Act trigger.
3. Act recording.
4. Act interpitation.

These are not enough for even scientific evidence. Why is this not enough? Because it's NOT REPLICATABLE between different cultures, ages or even all individuals. And this is the major foundation in evidence, it must be possible to be replicated and have the same result!
Water always boils at the same temperature IF air pressure is the same. This is replicatable conditions, because the properties for water don't change if it had a bad day, or it secretly dislikes the researcher, have a head ache or are late somewhere, it doesn't care if it's in a room it thinks looks nice or boring, nor if its parents tried to teach it how to behave nicely and it never feels inclined to "help" the researcher getting the "right" results.

There are simply too many ways of viewing things in psychology.
It's like having a bucket of germs and know that one of all of the different kinds cures colds, you can prove this by having someone stand in the room for two hours and come out healthy.
All you can find are indications, but you don't know if it's a specific germ, a mix or the bucket that cures the person, it might even be so that once you examine the bucket, the germ that cured the person has been eaten by the rest and are gone without a trace.
NOTE: Example, not a subject for discussing ways of identifying antigens!

Not very eagerly awaiting the next **** **** **** reply.
//Silver.

If you are suggesting that your personal opinion outweighs all the evidence I have provided, that is your perogative, however you have provided no peer reviewed research whatsoever to back up your personal opinion that per aspergers. Nor, have you provided any third party evidence that refutes the evidence I have provided, other than your personal criticism for the scientific method used in the study of social sciences.

And, instead of finding any research to back up your opinion, which I have actually provided, of what exists, you choose instead to make emotional weighted responses, rather than providing third party research and evidence in support of your personal opinion.

That was somewhat predictive from the emotional weighted statements I have seen regarding similar issues in the past, per my anecdotal experience; that is just biased opinion though, because it is only based on my experience and personal observations.

Your evidence was based on personal observations like your perception that you are always proven right in logical arguments.

The first statement you made was weighted with emotion. That's okay, but it doesn't provide any empirical evidence whatsoever for the statement, other than your personal observations limited to one person's experience in life.

Per the scientific evidence that is available provided by the scientific method, the research scientists have a definite advantage over one person's emotionally biased opinion, whether it is mine or yours, and regardless if it is done in the field of social sciences or rocket science.

If you can find some third party research to back up your opinion; if I was provided some type of peer reviewed evidence that supports your opinion, I might consider the potential that your statement had empirical validity. I've already provided some evidence, that per limited scenarios, there are some autistic individuals that have an advantage in the logical decision making process, per specific areas of the decision making process and logical outcomes.

However the evidence that ASD's are inherently disabling disorders, are part of the diagnositic criteria, per the social communication impairments and RRB's required for someone to be diagnosed with one of the inherently disabling disorders that limit brain function. It is not possible to technically dispute that unless one is talking about symptoms that do not meet the diagnostic criteria for ASD's. The diagnoses only exist within the parameters of diagnostic classification, and per that diagnostic classification they are diagnoses that are considerable and inherent sources of disability; all five ASD's. And in addition, per legal definition as well, in US Code.

once again your posts are self evident proof that my points are right.you said it yourself when you said silvervarg was ignoring the scientific evidence you presented and was going with his emotions.

and mr. silvervarg i have told you politley in private messages to cut out the bickering with aghogday and sweatlief and now im saying rudely on open forum.knock it the **** 0ff.dont like them,then dont respond to there posts.very easy concept

I have no idea how he experiences emotions, the only analysis I can make are from words in statements. Love is an abstract term for emotion, but it appears to have been used with the emotion of sarcasm rather than the emotion of love in that statement. But never the less, the statement appeared to be weighted with the emotinal expression of sarcasm.

I am definitely capable of replying with emotional generalized statements, however I choose to attempt not to do this. It is a good practice to attempt to discuss things in an objective manner. Online conversations are only potential evidence that anyone even has an actual professional diagnosis of autism spectrum disorders.

I personally think that most people are honest about their self-reports, in fact that aspect has been informally researched on this site, and shown to be fairly consistent, per statistical analysis in how people test for autistic traits on tests that scan for ASD's.

I don't give much credence to self-evident proofs based on an online conversation, without third party evidence; there is usually no evidence of professional credentials of anyone in the conversations. This site is far from reflective of the studied general population diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders, so any assessment here generalized to the rest of the population of autistic individuals, is only specific to a minority of that population.

A way to determine a fair representation of evidenced facts per disorders are to gather them from evidence in research that studies that move farther than this limited online demographic.

It is difficult to find that in one area of research, so many sources must be provided to gain a fuller picture evidenced in the full spectrum of autism spectrum disorders, even as it applies to one disorder such as Aspergers syndrome. This site is not even indicative of the general population studied as diagnosed with Aspergers as there is nearly a one to one ratio of females to males, as compared to the 5 to 1 ratio of males to females evidenced in the general population, diagnosed with Aspegers.

And, measured diagnosed cases of Aspergers are extremely rare in the general population, so it would almost be impossible for anyone to gather reliable anecodotal opinion on much about the disorder, per personal face to face interactions in experiences in life. Even support groups in large cities for Aspergers, only generate a handful of individuals diagnosed in cities as large as those that have populations of over several hundred thousand individuals. One has only recently come available in my metropolitan area of close to half a million people. The group consists mostly of parents and autistic individuals, even though it was specifically advertised for aspergers.

There is a great deal of emotion expressed in this online community, as much or more than I see expressed in any other well moderated non-autistic online forum on the internet. There are other online communities for individuals with Aspergers, not moderated nearly as well as this one, where emotional hyperbole is expresssed at extreme levels.

If there is anecdotal evidence that autistic individuals are ruled by emotions, that can be reliably determined in online autistic communities, it can easily be found on this site, and found in much larger doses on other "autistic friendly sites", not moderated nearly as well.

Whenever there is a controversial topic anywhere on the internet regarding topics that are emotional hot ones for the autistic community, the emotion is expressed loud and clear, regardless of how it is personally understood, felt, or received.

I personally don't think that is reflective of the level of emotional involvement in issues of the greater population of individuals with autism, but one does not normally hear those voices self identified through statements on the internet.

If I came to this site as a completely neutral observer not knowing anything about aspergers, my analytical observation based on the information expressed here, would be that it is a group of individuals that express a great deal of emotion, in written communication.

I don't think my communication is indicative of the majority of individuals that visit this site, but I certainly wouldn't draw the conclusion that I am the only autistic individual here, because of the stereotype that autistics speak in monotone and never express emotion.

That stereotype is blown away by the written responses on this site, if self reports of diagnosis are accurate. I think you have likely seen plenty of that emotion expressed here as well. It doesn't make a moderator's job here entirely easy, it is usually the individuals that can reliably control their emotions that are selected to volunteer for that duty.

its an open forum, tact and tone is of course important but as long as he doesnt break the rules telling him to f off is nothing but bad behavior in itself,

his concerns about social science are also valid as a general statement, their actual bearing on his argument, not so much.

I'm not trying to prove my argument, I'm just sick of the third-part-evidence-crap spewed out by someone who obviously doesn't know what influence the research.


Please pay close attention to the last part.

As you can see it's a long section of what might might have influenced this study, this must always be included, and this is a very short one since I didn't have to take into account that the subject (the news papers) might react to me.
This is one of my first labs in the field, a simple way of messuring gender difference in media. Very high validation and reliability, so what conclosion can be draw? Squat. Why? Because it's too limited, same problem here as with everything els in the field, there are not enough data, it doesn't factor in culture, target group, selling ethics, different medias way communicating (how do you compare TV and radio?), any major events infuencing the paper, etc etc.
This is what everyone doing research in the field must take into account every time (not exactly the same, but the principle stands), that's why claiming to have evidence in form of one studie isn't worth anything.
And no, sadly I have no third party evidence I didn't write this during the night...

So why don't I add all these fancy little quotes? Because I have no illusion that you will go and get the books I'd be quoting from, it would be completley redundant, if I'm unsure I go to my book shelf and look it up, I don't google.


If someone adresses my posts I respond in the same way I percieved the person responed to me.
Manners in a discussion dictates one should understand the oppositons arguments and ground before they respond.

Last edited by Silvervarg on 14 May 2012, 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

@aghogday
it wasnt my contention that autistics have no emotion but i was just trying to get you to admit your a logical thinker and so are most autistics.being a logical thinker doesnt make one emotionless.if anything autistics emotions are too intense which leads to hyposensitivity and disassociation.neurotypicals have less strong emotions so good feelings dont cause hypnosis and there not forced to disassociate from bad emotions.so they feel there emotiona all the time so there thinking is more emotion oriented

[quote="Silvervarg"][/quote]
you do know we agree right?

also responding in kind is sinking to whatever level you felt insulted by, not excactly productive, only disruptive.
especially when you misunderstand what was said

i dont think anyone can generalize anything about thought process, of course we can speculate and i agree its impossible to take a social study as hard proof but that works both ways.

1.i did not tell anyone to F off,i used the same #### thingy that silvervarg used in is his post.
2. i said knock it the #### off,not F off
3.what was clearly meant was stop the bickering
4.maybe its good i used hostile language maybe it will help people learn how there posts make others feel
5.i have nothing against silvervarg i was only trying to make point,i actualy agree with many of his posts polticaly

I do, but I wanted to post without having aghogday reply because it was directed to him.

Indeed it does, that's why I don't put anything in here except for what I know to be general knowledge (a.i things that can be observed, without need for explainations) about how people react and logical arguments that supports my theory, if someone proves that my knowledge is out of date/corrupt or any flaws in my logic I will consider their points.


I've been on the internet for a very long time, it takes more than a cupple of blanks to upset me. ^^
I care more what you write, not what words you use, amusingly shown here. ^^

There is no bookshelf that comes anywhere close to equaling the bookshelf provided by Google. If you don't want to use that easily available resource, it's up to you, but if one is searching for evidence to support or refute a point, it is highly restrictive not to pursue that avenue of research.

It is obvious that there are flaws in many studies, ranging from social science to physics, however you haven't provided any flaws in the methodology of the many studies I have provided, that address different demographics in autism spectrum disorders. You provide a study above that appears to be potentially biased, that is associated with media, but it is not reflective of any of the issues studied or methodology used in the studies I have provided. The scientific method provides evidence, and that evidence is either validated or refuted by further study. You have provided absolutely no evidence to back up one person's anecdotal experience in life, in the statement you made.

That is your perogative, but a discussion about the general flaws in methodology in some areas of research does not provide evidence that the methodology used in the specific research I have provided is flawed.

Moreover, the diagnostic criteria determines what is disabling about neurological disorders, which include asperger's syndrome, not emotionally weighted anecdotal statements.This was your emotionally weighted statement:



Some of my interests are neurocognitive science, neuroplasticity; and emotion and how it impacts the decision making process. Your comment provided a side discussion for some of those issues that I find interesting in discussing. It might be reasonable to suggest that autistic individuals are more logical than emotional than some in the population, in fact it is a common stereotype, because many autistic individuals are evidenced as having emotional processing difficulties beyond the general population in social communication, however that is not an evidenced advantage in overall logic per the general population. And moreover, it is obvious that emotion plays a huge role in the decision making process, even in deductive reasoning, as anecdotally evidenced in autistic online communities, although not representative of the offline demographic across the full spectrum of autism spectrum disorders.

The scientific evidence as it exists provides evidence that individuals with Autism/Aspergers have overall difficulties in contextual reasoning and while they show strengths in abstract reasoning per non verbal tests of intelligence, there are no significant advantages replicated in studies above and beyond the general population. And per Aspergers adults, as evidenced, results in non-verbal tests of abstract reasoning are actually significantly lower than the non-asperger adult population studied.

I provided one study specific to autistic children per difficulties with contextual reasoning; the study below provides evidence that defeasible inferences or contextual reasoning is compromised among adult high functioning autistics both those with Aspergers and HFA. Deductive logic is not studied as compromised per this research in high functioning autistic individuals, however there is no advantage shown above the control group of non-autistic individuals per that area of logic.

It is already clearly understood in the clinical environment that individuals with autism spectrum disorders have difficulties in executive functioning. The study below provides evidence as to some of the specific issues that may be associated with these problems in executive functioning.

If you can provide flaws in the methodology, per personal opinion, it is going to take third party evidence to back the opinion up, because there is no one on this site, that has even self reported credentials that come anywhere close to those of the individuals that did the study. The reputable Institutes represented in this study are listed below.

If you one does not use Google as a reference tool there is the potential to expand horizons in knowledge on topics discussed, per the gold mine of knowledge that is available through the tool of Google, per reputable sources that are available; even if only presented by others in informal discussions.

If you do not benefit from the discussion, in expanding knowledge on the subject ,someone else may. And, someone may be interested enough to provide evidence that refutes the evidence I have provided, to expand knowledge on the issue. That has happened many times in the past on this site.

While in some cases it is specific skills evidenced that give some autistic individuals an advantage over others in the population in providing expertise in a niche, it is often the factor of perserverence, evidenced from overcoming adversity in life that makes the difference in the level of effort that provides results. Of course, that phenomenon is not limited to the adversity evidenced in autism spectrum disorders.

The neuroplasticity evidenced in adults with autism disorder who take the raven matrices tests of fluid intelligence, is evidence of how human beings naturally overcome adversity in life, through the process of neuroplasticity. In the case of autism disorder, it is the verbal deficits that are compensated by enhancements in visual pattern recognition in life, as measured in the level of profeciency among those adult individuals with autism disorder, in non verbal tests of abstract reasoning in adulthood.

It is groundbreaking that a measure of intelligence, per the raven matrices test of fluid intelligence, brings children with autism disorder that are considered intellectually disabled by standard measures of intelligence up close to average measures of intelligence per non-verbal measure of intelligence. However, what is even more interesting is that the adults with autism disorder whom are considered intellectually disabled or border line intellectually disabled through standard measures of intelligence in adulthood, actually score slightly higher than those in the general population with above average standard measured intelligence, when tested with non-verbal tests of abstract reasoning. That is an amazing result that reflects the ability of the human mind to adapt to neurocognitive challenges early in life, and continue to adapt through adulthood, through other areas of neurocognitive abilities.

If neurocognitive science research into autism was highly flawed and not taken seriously as a reputable area of research, these results would mean little; however neurocognitive science is taken very seriously in the scientific community, among those that are knowledgeable about this area of research.

http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:64255:13/component/escidoc:273876/Pijnacker_Defeasible_Reasoning_Neuropsychologia_2009.pdf

My issues with autism or anyone elses issues with autism on this site are not necessarily reflective of the much different, larger demographic of autism that exists in the offline world, or even the much smaller demographic represented on this website.

It is difficult to make reliable conclusions based on the entire spectrum of all five disorders or even one disorder based on the limited demographic of this website, or any other website that has an autistic discussion board, per anecdotal opinion provided in discussions, or in one's limited face to face interaction in real life, as reported in discussion.

The opinions are often emotionally weighted, and not indicative of the actual evidenced research or facts provided on areas of subjective concern.

When I first came here, I could have accepted the opinion that was widely discussed that Autism Speaks was all evil and did nothing good, however it was not a reasonable sounding statement to me that something is all anything, so I pursued the facts as they exist, and found much of the information that was being circulated to be firstly emotionally biased and secondly inaccurate because no one was checking the facts.

Anecdotal evidence that group think, has the same impact here, as on most any other website.

Interesting to me because the stereotype for high functioning autistics that I had heard in various media representations was that they were logical instead of emotional. There are a few here that come across that way but most express high levels of emotion in the reasoning process, as it comes across in written communication, from what I have observed.

As I researched the issue through third party evidence, what I found was that the stereotype in part, is a myth. The type of logic used in computer programming and mathematics is not equal to the type of logic used in real life circumstances that involve people, that autistic individuals are evidenced as having difficulties in.

And, even the stereotype that individuals diagnosed with Aspergers are good at the type of logic required for computer programming and mathematics, while applicable to some is an incorrect stereotype as well for the majority, per evidence of the overlap of non-verbal learning disorder studied in the larger asperger's demographic, that entails math difficulties as one of the common issues in that learning disorder.

On this site, per informal polls, the demographic here, reports a high percentage of problems in mathematics, while having strengths in verbal skills, reflective of non-verbal learning disorder.

It's interesting stuff to me, as an individual. The rigidity that exists in some opinions is also anecdotal evidence of contextual problems in reasoning evidenced among autistic individuals both with autism disorder and aspergers, in the research that I have presented in this discussion.

I've had those same issues with rigidity in contextual logic my entire life, eventually becoming consciously aware of it, and eventually finding adaptations to overcome some of it. Google is an excellent tool, that in part, can be used as an adaptation to overcome contextual difficulties in logical reasoning. Systemizers, to a large degree have provided the tools for adaptation both for themselves, and for others.


Much of the logical process that underlies Google, is reflective of Raven matrices tests for abstract reasoning; that's not too surprising, considering the number of systemizers that were involved in designing google.

My answer would be that some of the symptoms that come along with Asperger's Syndrome could extreme into a disability. Asperger's Syndrome is more like a different way of life but then everybody has different traits and symptoms and that's where it gets more complex.

1.Everyone on this website is different and types of autism are different,remember there are only 4 now because Retts is gone next year.however the truth of the intense world theory bleeds through to all
2. Pictoral thinkers can be very emotional and emotion oriented thinkers can be cold and stoic.visual vs. emotion thinking has nothing to do with whether people have emotions



3.I have done little or no autism speaks bashing or at least not without bashing the ASAN to.