Terrible joints.
kx250rider
Supporting Member
Joined: 15 May 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,140
Location: Dallas, TX & Somis, CA
If you're an early teen, and having those knee problems, there is a common problem that knees can have (particularly with some Hispanic boys, but also can be seen in any ethnicity and also in girls, I think, if I recall what I read correctly). There is a minor surgery to fix it, and it's something you need to ask a doctor to verify.
If you just have bad joints in general, you might not be making enough synovial fluid (the heavy liquid that your body naturally makes to lubricate joints). Taking glucosamine supplements (or even getting Acetyl-D glucosamine injections) might help a lot. I get those.
Charles
I'll second that glucosamine supplements can help. I recently had a shoulder surgery to fix a torn labrum (the cartilage that forms the shoulder socket) and I have pretty much made healthy living my main interest. I've done lots of research on joint health and arthritis, diet, exercise, supplements... my doctor said that I would probably develop arthritis down the road due to the injury/surgery. So I'm out to prove him wrong.
One thing that gets overlooked is that the body is an interconnected system. When something goes wrong it will affect everything else. Your joints may be the only thing that is hurting but that pain is likely a symptom of a greater systemic inflammation. Inflammation starts in the gut and manifests itself in all sorts of horrible ways. What you eat is incredibly important.
Excuse the graphic description of the following personal experience:
After I had my surgery I got very sick and could not stop pooping. It was all liquid, like a faucet, for over a month. I came to find out that I was gluten intolerant, the surgery stressed my immune system and brought out the previously dormant symptoms (btw over 80% of your immune system is in your gut). I had already given up dairy earlier that year because it became apparent that it was causing trouble too. Once I also removed the gluten from my diet I started feeling so much BETTER! I became less hyperactive, fell asleep faster, slept better, and had much better ability to focus and be more productive. Also, my mood stabilized and I haven't had any more issues with depression, which was a huge struggle for me most of my life. I've also eliminated yeast and any food or drink that will feed or promote the growth of candida yeast. A lot of people with autism suffer from systemic candida overgrowth. Just do a search and you can see there is a link between candida and joint pain, arthritis, fatigue, depression, autoimmune disorders...the list goes on. I'm happier healthier now and while I do occasionally miss certain foods, I'd rather not eat them because I know they will make me sick. It is worth the effort because BEING HEALTHY FEELS SO GOOD.
Ok ok, how does this relate to joint pain? Simple. When the body/mind is stressed by anything inflammation occurs. Normally in a healthy body inflammation is a good thing, for instance, it helps fight off infections. Unfortunately sometimes inflammation can get out of control and do more harm than good. Inflammation causes your body to acidify and break down certain tissues... cartilage is especially susceptible to this breakdown as are your connective tissues.
SO, my first advice to you is to do some reading and see a gastrointerologist who is experienced in dealing with autism spectrum patients. Most GP doctors won't have a clue about this stuff as western medicine tends to only focus on alleviating symptoms instead of finding and treating the cause(s). Well meaning but oblivious doctors may recommend NSAIDS to help with the pain but they will only make your condition worse. NSAIDS like asprin and ibuprofen break down the lining of your intestines and cause leaky gut syndrome- increasing inflammation and breaking down tissues faster. Arthritis is not caused by a lack of pain pills.
Second, eat what is good for you and drink only water. Lots of water will help flush your system of toxins and will assist healing your tissues. Replace grains with greens. Don't eat meat or eggs that are conventionally produced with tons of antibiotics, try to stick to organic grass fed animal protein. Remember if you are eating meat, you are also eating everything that animal ate. Antibiotics kill off the beneficial bacteria in your gut and thus help candida grow out of control. Yes organic meat is more expensive but you should eat less of it, eat mostly veggies.
Third, exercise. Weight training is a great way to strengthen joints. Make sure you work everything evenly. Every muscle has an antagonist that should also be strengthened (ie. biceps and triceps, hams and quads), you want to find and eliminate any muscular imbalances. Muscular imbalances will further stress your joints. Strengthening smaller muscle groups deeper inside the joints with those big stretchy bands and physical therapy exercises will help stabilize your body and improve balance and coordination. Once you have been weight training for a while and have built up the muscles and connective tissue around your joints, more joint-stressing activities like running can be eased into your workout routine.
After all three of the above comes the supplements. It is important to note that these are the least important part of your healing program. Hence the name SUPPLEMENT. Simply popping pills will not improve your long-term health by any measurable degree unless you also address diet and exercise. There is no easy way. You have to give up damaging foods and be open to trying new healthier options. Be patient and keep a diary of what you eat and how it makes you feel. Every body is different. That said, here are the supplements that I've found very helpful:
Glucosamine sulfate is a structural component of cartilage and also helps to increase the synovial fluid in joints--- NOT glucosamine HCL (hydrochloride). The HCL variety is much less effective. Also, don't buy combo supplements that contain chondroitin. Chondroitin causes prostate issues in older men and research has shown no significant benefits. (This info came from my surgeon, a Harvard grad cartilage restoration specialist) In my research, it is also helpful in eliminating candida overgrowth.
MSM aka methylsulfonylmethane-- This is great stuff. An organic, naturally occurring and bio-available sulfur supplement that is essential part of cartilage. You get some of this naturally through your diet too. It helps heal muscle strains and drastically reduces post-workout soreness. Some yoga instructors claim it aids in gaining flexibility. My personal experience has confirmed these benefits. MSM is also helpful in eliminating candida overgrowth.
High Quality fish oil, preferably 3rd party tested for purity. Known as a potent anti-inflammatory. Avoid the cheap "made in china" brands, it makes me shudder to think of all the heavy metals, PCBs, and other toxins those could contain. If in doubt just don't take them.
Hyaluronic acid- jury is still out on this one when it comes to joints but it is great for skin, hair and fingernails. HA is a natural polymer that makes up your synovial joint fluid. The molecule binds to water to form a jelly like lubricant for your joints. Doctors can inject a form of HA directly into joints. There is a small town in japan where the inhabitants eat a diet rich in HA and there are no incidences of arthritis.
With all of these supplements, you need to drink LOTS of water for them to be most effective.
Good luck and hang in there!
Hyaluronic acid- jury is still out on this one when it comes to joints but it is great for skin, hair and fingernails. HA is a natural polymer that makes up your synovial joint fluid. The molecule binds to water to form a jelly like lubricant for your joints. Doctors can inject a form of HA directly into joints. There is a small town in japan where the inhabitants eat a diet rich in HA and there are no incidences of arthritis.
Can you recommend a high quality fish oil and hyaluronic acid?
The only daily supplements I take right now are one capsule each of CoQ10 and fish oil. This is the fish oil I'm taking - http://www.naturesbounty.com/product/019404 - and the CoQ10 is either from Kirkland (Costco) or NatureMade, whichever is on sale.
I'm not taking them for joint help though, more cardiovascular.
I'm interested in HA as there is a lot of that in women's skincare. I didn't know it was also available for ingestion.
Thanks.
kx250rider
Supporting Member
Joined: 15 May 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,140
Location: Dallas, TX & Somis, CA
I don't think I can agree, based on the Aspies I know personally, but then again, I'm not a researcher. I know another Aspie who is a semi-professional acrobat, and no bad joints or atrophy. Ironically, the OCD properties of Asperger's, can help a lot if your interest happens to be fitness or bodybuilding (as in my case). I don't have any problem building bulk, and maintaining lean, toned muscle tissue, but I certainly have terrible joints for a 44 year old, and in fact I had a bone scan earlier this year where the results looked like an 80-year-old man with regard to hip and spinal degenrative disease. But I refuse to allow that to slow me down, so I ignore the pain as best I can, and/or work carefully to avoid exacerbating the problem.
Charles
I don't think I can agree, based on the Aspies I know personally, but then again, I'm not a researcher. I know another Aspie who is a semi-professional acrobat, and no bad joints or atrophy. Ironically, the OCD properties of Asperger's, can help a lot if your interest happens to be fitness or bodybuilding (as in my case). I don't have any problem building bulk, and maintaining lean, toned muscle tissue, but I certainly have terrible joints for a 44 year old, and in fact I had a bone scan earlier this year where the results looked like an 80-year-old man with regard to hip and spinal degenrative disease. But I refuse to allow that to slow me down, so I ignore the pain as best I can, and/or work carefully to avoid exacerbating the problem.
Charles
I should've mentioned that it's the neurological meaning of "muscle tone" rather than the body-building usage of the term. I have no idea if low neurological muscle tone has any effect on the ability to build muscle or not. As far as joints, I just remembered the proper term: "hypermobility." If you have that, then your joints tend to get bad with time. There is an increased incidence over the general population (again, I can't find my links), but that of course doesn't mean that every ASD person has it.
Some metabolic disorders are associated with hypotonia. Strabismus (crossed eyes) and seizures can be associated with hypotonia in metabolic disorders. Children who have autism, developmental delays and hypotonia may need to be evaluated for inborn errors of metabolism.
This person does a good overview of both conditions on their blog:
http://life-with-aspergers.blogspot.com ... -mean.html
Although it's not part of the official diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, low muscle tone is nevertheless an condition strongly associated with Aspergers.
Why is it so Confusing?
When most people hear about "low muscle tone" they assume that it has something to do with bodybuilding - I certainly did at first. This is particularly confusing since many newly diagnosed aspies are children and it's quite uncommon to see any child with a well-developed set of muscles. Most parents will either simply ignore the condition or assume that a bit of outdoor activity, eg: playing soccer, is required.
The other confusing thing is that there are adult aspies out there who regularly attend the gym and who have "better" muscles than many NT people. How do they fit the criteria?
I saw a great line on a web site discussing Hyptonia. "Your kid seems perfectly good with their muscles - they are strong, they run round with boundless energy, but they have trouble doing things. You have likely been given the standard explanation about your kid's muscles being floppy and you just cannot see it in your kid."
Defining Low Muscle Tone
Low muscle tone refers mainly to the distribution of muscles on the body, their initial state, speed and stamina. The affected muscles can be "trained" but that training won't come from sport or from and normal gym/weight training. It comes from some very specialized training - and it won't be 100% effective. In young children, the problems of low muscle tone will reduce in severity as they get older - up to about the age of 10, though aspies will likely continue to adjust and compensate for the rest of their lives.
Hypermobility/HyperFlexibility
Low muscle tone is often described as "floppiness". This is because the muscles are supposed to help support the skeleton and are supposed to prevent certain types of movement. Since the muscles aren't particularly tight, people with low muscle tone often experience "hypermobility", the ability to move limbs into awkward positions.
As children, aspies often find that they are able to easily perform feats which require flexibility but not strength or balance, such as splits, backbending and shoulder rotation. They may display unusual flexibility in other joints such as fingers.
The Bad News about Low Muscle Tone
Such flexibility comes with a price and aspies are usually quite uncoordinated and clumsy. In running, this contributes to the famed "unusual gait". It's easy to imagine that low muscle tone only affects the big muscles but this isn't the case, it affects all activities requiring muscles including most notably, speech, pencil grip and writing.
When sitting or standing for long periods, aspies tend to slump quite a bit. Sometimes, they will stand with their legs crossed in what appears to be an uncomfortable fashion. My mother was constantly trying to correct this stance and while I'm reasonably aware of it at work, I still find myself standing that way regularly. I'll point out now that although this looks uncomfortable, this is actually a very comfortable stance for aspies.
Aspies often sit with their head and shoulders rolled forward and will frequently lean on walls, furniture, door frames and desks. Parents of aspie children will probably be very familiar with being "leant on".
Low muscle tone does not prevent aspie children from enjoying themselves, they can run and play with other children without feeling any ill effects. The problem is that, they're a bit slower and they tire easily. This means that team sports, like soccer are often not well suited to aspies. In the case of my son, we turned to scouting as an alternative to soccer.
Dangers inherent in Low Muscle Tone
While the slumping and leaning behaviours aren't necessarily great posture, they're not particularly dangerous to the aspie unless the position is adopted for very long periods without proper breaks.
I have first-hand experience with this problem as I've had episodes of "overuse syndrome", a kind of RSI, with my hands, arms and shoulders from sitting at my computer for too long. It took quite a while for OH&S to work out that the issue wasn't with my hands, or even with my workspace. It was simply due to excessive time spent in an unsupported position.
Fixing the Problem
As I said earlier, the fix isn't normal weight training, it's physiotherapy and specialized muscle training. There is also a need for awareness and constant correction of one's position. In my case, the muscles most needing training were small ones high on my back. Correcting my keyboard "slump"moved my arms and shoulders back into less damaging positions. I have to be constantly aware of my position and correct it thoughout the day. I also do a bit of stretching and strengthening work on them at the gym.
I'm interested in HA as there is a lot of that in women's skincare. I didn't know it was also available for ingestion.
Thanks.
I use Carlson fish oil, its a bit pricey but the fish are sourced from Norwegian waters and they are 3rd party tested to AOAC international protocols for potency and purity.
There is some debate as to whether HA is bio-available to your joints but it does seem to improve skin and hair health.
Once again, getting candida overgrowth under control will really improve overall health! Eat better!! !
there are also studies linking ASD to ligamentous laxity, which means your ligaments are longer than usual which can result in dislocations and joint injuries.
so yeah. pretty much: see a doctor, swim, eat veggies and drink water. i second the glucosamine/chondroitin/fish oil cocktail!