Aikido and Asperger's

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I've been traianing in aikido for about 12 years now, and teach a beginner's class at my dojo. I found that aikido really helped me with some of my issues about coordination and, particularly, being touched. In the last couple of weeks, though, a couplel of issues have come up that make me wonder how universal that utility is, and how far it goes.
First, there is a young woman who has been coming to the dojo for a couple of months (whidh shows some dedication on her part), who has Asperger's or HFA perhaps somewhat more than I do. She frequently leaves class early, often seeming somewhat upset, and frequently seems to completely ignore the instructions that sensei gives (not just me). Recently, I told her to please stay on the mat after bowing in, unless she intends to stop training for the evening, and to please not lean on the wall (both things that I and other senseis have told her before), and after about a minute of watching class from off the mat, she left. I stuck my head out the door and asked if she was ok, and she gave me a glare of death that sent me back into the dojo without asking any more questions.

So, assuming that this young woman even comes back, does anyone have any suggestions for how I can reach her? If she wants to progress in her training, she's going to have to start taking instruction at some point; if I stop instructing her, it basically means that I've written her off and have no hope for her but that she enjoys the recreation of getting out of the house once in a while. Maybe that's enough for her, but I hope not.

Second issue, this time dealing with my own Asperger's: we had a high-level visiting sensei come to the dojo for several classes this weekend, and in the very first class he picked me out and pointed out a lack of connection between me and my partners, and contradicted something that I've always been taught, which is that one shoudn't look one's partner directly in the eyes; he said that this rule was only for lower-level training, and that as one becomes better, one should make more eye contact and connect more on a psychological level with one's partner/opponent. Obviously, this poses some problems for me. Are there any martial art practitioners out there who have comments on the use of eye contact in a martial setting, and on connecting with one's partner despite Asperger's?

Hmm, interesting. I think a lot is just not her being pissed per se at getting instruction, but if it's in front of other people, she's probably embarrassed that she's failing in front of others, not catching on as fast, etc. So, if she can't be psychologically peptalked into just ignoring everyone else in the class, and doing stuff, you're gonna have to tell her she needs like, private "tutoring" if she does want to continue. I've had issues like this in class settings, I'd get pissed because my lack of progress compared to my peers, and I'd get really psychologically down on myself. My most recent example of this was a Mandarin class I was taking, I just didn't "get it" as fast as everyone else, and I eventually got to the point of breakdowns before having to go to class, and then just not going. I felt kinda bad wasting the money, but I feel like I just kept getting reminded of failure by my small failure in that class, it just reminded me of overall failure in my life.

However, in other things, especially athletic things, at my own pace and completely individually, I've done comparably well. Alot was just not having money for real coaching, but I still wanted to do stuff, so I'd just do stuff and ask people for advice and read a LOT. Real coaching is better if you got the cash, though. But, if my pursuits were subject to a "school" environment I'd have quit them a long time ago. It's just not something that works well for me. So this girl, I don't know how feasible it is, and how comfortable she and you'd be with it, she'd probably much do much better individually.

I don't know, rephrase what I said into questions and ask her next time she comes, and she'll probably agree.

As far as the eye contact, well, good luck, no idea what to tell you there.

The best way to anticipate what your opponent is going to do is to watch the centre of his upper body so you can see his shoulders and hips through your peripheral vision. I don't know why you would look your opponent in the eyes, it tells you nothing about what he's going to do next.

As I do have a strong background from japanese martial arts, I'd like to share my view on the topic. In Karate (Kyokushin, that is), when you trade standing bow (ritsu rei), you always maintain eye contact, as well as when doing a partner exercise and are standing facing each other while waiting for instructions. Strangely, I do not have any problems at all maintaining eye contact in these situations... in fact, most other people in my classes do. In sparring, it is impractical to look into the eyes, becasue you cannot track your opponents footwork through peripheral vision, and the eyes can be deceiving... or just don't tell you anything at all (I know from my training partners that my gaze is completely empty when sparring / fighting), so focusing on your opponent's center (solar plexus) is most commonly used.
As to your problem with that young lady, I cannot help you with that, as I am quite the hardliner in this regard. Anyone who is willing to learn should be tought, but the common principle that budo starts and ends with respect is one of the highest to hold. I am honest, I took this over from my shihan in karate. He is a really nice and experienced man, and towards beginners, he is rather lenient. After a while though, I you do not stick to the dojo-kun / dojo etiquette, he will approach you, and tell you that you should consider changing your ways. He'll do it again, and maybe a third time. After that, you're out, no questions asked, it's byebye for good. It has worked in most cases, I have only witnessed him actively expelling one student, every one else just accomodated after the first or second warning, or left on their own. To me, this is one of the great things about martial arts: In training, there is little to no talking going on, there is one person telling you what exercise to do, and you carry it out, just focusing on yourself, your partner and your surroundings. I like very strict and hard training, but I know this isn't for everyone. If that young lady does not return, do not blame yourself, maybe it is not her time yet, or not her cup of tea in general.

Now, you don't want to "out" the lady, even in your private talkings with her. She may not be at the point where she comfortable self-identifies as being on the Asperger's-Autism Spectrum, or she certainly may not like the idea that it's so immediately obvious to you. But strongly suspecting may inform you, for example, that you need to be direct and matter-of-fact (and brief and respectful) about social aspects, but that you don't need to dumb down content-oriented information.

About the visiting sensei, that's a difficult situation, where he singles you out, corrects you in front of the group, about something which you have been taught, perhaps even something he's mistaken about, and then several more classes to participate publicly and socially after this incident. That is a difficult situation, I think whether a person is on the spectrum or not. I guess try and be open-minded and try not to immediately come to a conclusion.

I studied judo from age 8 to about age 17 and received a purple belt. My dojo wasn't that big on testing and advancement (they gave you both the test and the book, which struck me as inauthentic and cheating, so I less participated on that side.) I did participate in some pretty big tournaments, and learned a lot.

I think with a second-degree black belt a person could run a good-sized dojo and help a lot of people. And past this point, success would be more about teaching skills, delegating skills, coaching skills, and yes, even business administration skills. Maybe from second to fourth and even beyond would be one path of personal growth, but not the only path. And kind of like Carl Sagan not being elected to the National Academy of Science (frankly, probably because he was too good at explaining), the higher the level, the more political it is.

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I advocate self-defense, and if you and other people are interested, I'd like to run a couple of ideas past you. For things, like school yard fights, tight defensive boxing is a person's best bet. "Tight, defensive boxing to a draw. One week." http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt134616.html For more serious situations, like if a stranger threatens you with a knife, a blocking and striking marital art like Tae Kwon Do is a person's best bet. With this, a person may get up to speed in a couple of months, and may develop and practice enough skills where it might make a difference. With aikido, you're talking a couple of years. Now, aikido is beautiful in other regards and is a spiritual path and a spiritual discipline, but it is not the short path to self-defense.

And then, I very much give what I think is the excellent advice, please don't take a bunch of blows to the head during training because all that stuff about post-concussion syndrome, and even cumulative lesser blows, is largely true. And just like football helmets don't really protect, presumably neither does boxing headgear nor headgear of other types.

Last edited by AardvarkGoodSwimmer on 27 Mar 2012, 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

I like 1000knives's idea about private lessons; that might work, and if she comes back I'll suggest it.

Wrt. the visiting sensei's advice, I received instructions directly contrary from one sempai; I'll bring it up with the dojo-cho, who is a similar rank to the visiting sensei, and see what he thinks about the issue. In the mean time, I will work on my connection but not focus on the eyes.

@ AardvarkGoodSwimmer, I agree that different martial arts satisfy different goals, though I would add basic judo or wrestling to the list of 'good-in-the-schoolyard' arts. Police self-defense seminars are good for teaching quick self-defense techniques for resisting kidnapping by evildoers.

'sport' arts like jujitsu and MMA are good in fights about dominance, but crap if someone really wants to hurt you: they take blows to the head like they're nothing, and when someone goes for your eyes it's good to get your face out of the way.

aikido....
I've trained in aikido for 12 years, and I have to say that it's a mixed bag. Some dojos are essentially teaching partner dance w/o music; others are some of the meanest places you can imagine. In general, aikidoka don't 'fight,' and if someone takes out your eyes or crushes your throat on purpose to end a fight, it's going to be an aikidoka and not an MMA guy. That said, the goal of aikido, what we train for for years, is to be able to end a fight with the least amount of damage to our partner. The question is simply how anxious and/or surprised the aikidoist made is by his or her attacker.

All fights are about dominance.



MMA guys know a lot more about hurting than aikidoka.



Against trained fighters. Not against karate clowns or aikido hippies.



And who would have better head movement: someone who practices live combat and trains to avoid punches or someone who trains in an art that only theorizes about it?



The only half-decent aikidoka I've ever seen are the practitioners of the full-contact Tomiki style. And they make up less than 1% of all aikidoka.



...

I'm guessing you don't know any MMA guys. The average MMA guy is far meaner than the average aikido guy.



4th dan Aikido teacher of the biggest dojo in Vietnam vs a submission wrestler:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE&feature=watch_response[/youtube]

Aikido black belt vs Judo black belt, this one is especially laughable:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s[/youtube]

I couldn't find any aikido vs mma fights, and I'm kind of glad I couldn't.

Ah, the good old "my art is better than yours". Posting videos is rather moot, though, as you do not pit a style against another style, it is a human against another human. Not saying the aikidoka are being heavily outclassed by their opponents, but it is pretty clear that is partially due to their lack of physical conditioning (especially the one in the second video, he is out of breath after the first time he went down). Now, while I do not consider myself a mixed martial artist, in the sense that I do not indulge in the competetive aspect of the sport, but I do train a broad range of different martial arts, and I do participate in training sessions with some MMA fighters I know, mainly because they say I am a tough opponent, even though I am a "karate clown". Mixed martial arts are a sport. The folks I know are tough, and they sure could handle themselves well in a fight on the streets because they got good strength, stamina and agility, aspects I, personally, focus on even though I have no interest in competetive fighting. Fighting in a ring is with rules. As soon as rules are involved, you are limited in judging your ability as a fighter. Ever wonder why not many boxer are successful just with boxing in MMA? Because boxing is a sport. They got good conditioning, good striking power and stamina. Put foot techniques into the mix, and the ability to grapple, and all your boxing skills are worth next to nothing. The same, in my oppinion, holds true with MMA, or hell, any other martial art that puts restrictions to itself in order to enforce a competetive environment. Having good ground game is a nice skill to have. I train in BJJ, and I know how effective it could be. Then again, I cannot count the number of times I have been stuck in a choke or armbar, and thought: "I wonder if he could maintain this hold if I used my hand he isn't trying to control and just curshed his balls with a sturdy grip" or "I wonder if he would let go of me if I just plucked his eyes out with my other hand, while biting a chunk out of his leg." I know I would let go. Like I said, many martial arts will give you an edge in a "real" fight, including MMA, mainly because of physical conditioning (Even Bruce Lee entertained the view that most martial arts did not put enough emphasis on building functional strength and stamina, and if you didn't have good abs, you had not business in even considering things like sparring). MMA surely isn't anywhere near useless when it comes to developing combative abilities. Is it better per se just because you fight in a ring? Far from it.

@ Icyclan: no, all fights are not about dominance. Some are about survival. Most men fight over social dominance; most women fight for survival. MMA guys (formerly, Brazilian jujitsu guys) are generally the types who want to be 'badasses' so that they can be physically dominant as*holes in a group of other men.
Note that being a physically dominant as*hole does not necessarily make one mean.
Also note that I clearly stated that some aikidoists are basically dancing for peace and harmony, not performing any kind of martial exercise.

Other notes: any fight or competetion that takes place in a dojo or a ring is necessarily constrained by rules. If any of those guys attacked me, I would probably loose - but, assuming that I had some kind of warning, the first thing I would try to do is take out their eyes. Not something you can do in the dojo. Hell, most dojos don't even train with mock weapons, much less live blades. MMA guys are trained to take punches to the head without flinching, and they might not even have the instinct to block me when I did it. Once their eyes are gone, the fight is over. Of course, that's all assuming that someone doesn't just shoot me in the back, which pretty much no marital training other than general awareness can do anyting to prevent.

While I occasionally picture what I would do 'if that sketchy guy over there tried to grab me,' I sincerely hope that I never have to use any of my training, successfully or otherwise. In the meantime, I train because it's fun, and it might someday be useful.

Finally, Icyclan, do you have anytihing constructive to add to the main questions of this thread?

One of my gurus always says: "Well, if they really wanted to get me, they'd just run me over with a car."

I don't think private lessons would be a good idea if a studend misbehaves. I do give private lessons myself, but it due to schedules. I would never give private lessons to someone that cannot accept my rules, it would only cater them and give them the impression that they can get through with their behaviour, and people will accomodate if they just stomp their feet and cry.
As for your own issues with AS in your MA training: I consider myself a very physical person, when it comes to things like forms, I am really fast to pick these things up (e.g. I learn most kata in Karate by watching them once, and I've picked up the first two hand forms of Wing Chun by getting them shown to me twice each), and my teachers always admire my very correct execution, but they always say I somehow lack fluidity and expression in my motions, which they find to be weird, since it usually comes from a lack of understanding or memorization, which is not the case with me. They always remark how I move very... well, mechanical, more or less like a machine, and I have no idea how I would ever get rid of that.

Yes. And the practitioners of some arts always seem to come out on top.



Telling, isn't it? That one can reach the rank of shodan in aikido while being in horrible shape. Even then, not being in shape is no excuse for being that bad. The first guy looks like a complete amateur, I bet he's never trained with a non-compliant uke before. Besides, the submission wrestler wasn't in great shape either; unlike the aikido teacher though, he knew what he was doing.



The average boxer would make mince meat of the average traditionalist solely because of athleticism and toughness. Even though the boxer has a very limited set of moves, that alone is enough to carry him through most fights. MMA is far less restricting yet. A well-conditioned MMA fighter will generally beat any other martial artist in a no-rules fight because his way of training mimics a real fight the closest.



I don't think you would, you'd probably barely feel it in the rush of a real fight and you'd crank his arm until he can't use his mouth for anything but screaming. People have been bitten, stabbed and shot in fights and never noticed until the fight was over. Pain-compliant moves such as biting aren't very reliable fight enders. Also, what choke or other submission would possibly allow you to reach for your opponent's eyes with your free hand? I can't think of any.

Then it's still about dominance for the other guy. If it was merely for survival for the both of you, you wouldn't be fighting to begin with.



I know many BJJ guys as well as traditionalists and the BJJ guys are generally far more humble because they don't delude themselves thinking they are deadly killing machines. After tapping out over 30 times in your first class and basically being used as a training dummy, you learn some humility really quickly. Traditionalists never expose themselves like that, so you can never be sure whether or not their humility is just a facade.

As for MMA guys, it's a mixed bag: you can't stereotype them like that, the days that only aggressive roidheads would practice it are long gone.



It's an egregious assumption that you could take out even one eye, let alone both. The eyes are about the smallest target you can hit and people protect them instinctively. It's much more likely that he manages to fire off a quick 1-2 combo followed by a shoot before you get anywhere near his face.





As for the woman, perhaps you're over-analyzing the situation and she's just a spoiled brat? I mean, we all have asperger's here, but it doesn't stop us from observing common dojo etiquette. I take it she has sufficient cognitive abilities to follow simple instructions?

Partially expressed myself wrong when it came to the BJJ part. Of course, once you are in a lock or chocke, it's over, I meant that part where someone tries to establish one of these and is in an advantageous position.
I don't think that MMA differs much from traditional martial arts, to be honest. Thing is, few people still practice traditional martial arts. Traditional, to me, means: like it used to be. If you train a martial art in a way as if your life still depended on it, I am sure you'd but a big emphasis on live sparring. I still stronlgy disagree that building skills for the ring is inherently better than with just self-defence on your mind, especially if you bring weaponry into the game. MMA might be "closer" to a "real" fight than boxing or wrestling, but it's still lightyears. The two videos still prove more or less nothing, it was still a controlled environment with certain rules. Little wonder that the judoka won against an aikidoka in a match played by judo rules. This famous fight between Andy Hug and Chanphuak Kiatsongrit, same story... of course the latter was at disadvantage, because they played by rules that catered more to Andy Hugs Kyokushin background: no striking to the head.
In my oppinion, as soon as you put gloves on your hands, you are out of the realm of a real fight.

I don't know, I think the submission wrestler was in good shape, I mean just because he has a small belly doesn't make him in horrible shape, sure he's not got a "beach body" but still. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfN0WOWvno This dude here, 325 pounds, can box jump 52".

Debating exactly how close MMA is to street fighting is pointless anyhow. What I'm trying to convey is that it's the best way to prepare for someone attacking you regardless the (lack of) rules. Countless no-rules fights (videotaped ones) between MMA'ers and traditionalists have proven that, and they have also proven that the so called 'dirty' moves are not a deciding factor in unarmed combat. Whether on the street or in the cage, a puch is a punch. Physics are the same everywhere. MMA, especially vale tudo rules, is very much like one-on-one street fighting.

Your definition of 'traditional' is not correct for many arts: taekwondo, shotokan and many other styles of karate and kung fu were never practiced differently than how they are practiced today. It wasn't until Oyama invented kyokushin that karate practitioners actually hit each other.

As for the videos, they prove that even high level aikidoka have no clue what to do when a non-compliant uke grabs them. The controlled setting was actually in favor of the aikido guys, because it allowed them to focus solely on countering the opponent's grabs (which is the brunt of aikido practice) without having to worry about being punched. And still they looked terrible.

Regarding the gloves, 4 oz MMA gloves don't change the dynamics of the fight much. Back in the old days of the UFC, when they weren't compulsory, some fighters would wear them anyway to be able to hit harder without breaking their fists.

Most competing submission wrestlers don't look as soft as he did, but it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to say was that the aikido guy was tossed around like a ragdoll.

As for the video, high level powerlifters are very explosive so it doesn't really surprise me, although I wonder if he's really 325.